Best high end monitors at around 6000-9000 EUR

[LTig]

The only differences between the KH420 and KH310 are the cleaner vertical horizontal directivity (limits of the compact layout) and higher SPL capacity. Since the KH310 manages 100 dB at 1 m at 100 Hz for 1% THD alone, and you plan on using subs, I don't think you need the KH420.
Which is why I'd look into other gimmicks than SPL like coaxial and cardioid response if I were you (and had your money).

I second that. I'm using the K&H O300D (predecessor of KH310) and a Genelec 7060B sub in a 50 square meter room and a listening distance of 3,7 m, and although the system is now 15 years old I'm still very happy with it. I do play loud sometimes but I have never seen the flashing light on the O300D which indicates too much SPL (clipping amps, actually). Shall the O310 break one day I'm going to replace them by KH310 (or whatever Neumann is selling then).

Adding the sub to the O300D did improve bass and mids significantly (subjective listening - let me add the Uh huh in advance). Since one of the major improvements of the KH310 over the O300D is 7 dB higher max output and reduced distortion in low bass it may be possible that adding a sub to a KH310 is not as necessary as with the O300D.

I too would recommend a sat/sub combo over a big speaker. Usually the best position for deep bass (room modes) is not the same as for best sound stage, and a good sub goes deeper than most big speakers. The sub creates a 4 way system which may sound cleaner in the low mids compared to a bigger 3 way system. And you can use the sats in a smaller room should need arise some day.

 

[direstraitsfan98]

Well that's kind of a self-resolving issue... given enough of both and you won't have to worry about hearing anything at all eventually. I do understand the distortion aspect and pointing at the bass levels where it's more anemic... but I think 115dB sustained should probably be enough with everything else. CDC sets safe exposure at that level at 30 seconds, though OSHA will give you 15 minutes.

Just curious how even short peaks at those levels aren't more of an obstacle to enjoyment than the layout of your room? I'm fine with a reference level of 100dB for cinema... but with musical content, I'd be uncomfortable at those levels for very long at all. Maybe you have a very large room and are quite a distance from the monitors?

I was speaking much more to distortion, actually. I want the headroom for peaks. All of my previous speakers I've owned seem to 'break' or 'fall apart' at higher SPL and I became convinced that anything less than a 10, or 12, or 15" driver can't reproduce the bass the way I like and want, and need.

I do listen to a lot of music with majority of musical energy in sub 100hz range. Big beat, like Chemical Brothers, etc. I only listen to such tracks at sustained levels once every few days or so, usually before a busy shift at work to help me get pumped up. And only a single song. Music is really important to me... my day is usually off to a bad start if I can't blast a banger track like Under the Influence or The Pretender, or Tom Sawyer at near rock concert levels at 9am in the morning before I leave for work

My room is 12x14 and I sit in the front portion of the room using a ratio I got off Cardas' website. I want a chance to listen to Kii 3 or Dutch and Dutch 8c one day but I don't see the point of auditioning such speakers unless I can a) get an in home audition or b) the audition at the dealers is in an enviornment that mirrors my room. Either is unlikely unless my local dealer gets a pair in as his room is very similar to mine in dimensions. And I'm always concerned that I'll get that 'small' sound from having smaller drivers.

 

[digicidal]

I was speaking much more to distortion, actually. I want the headroom for peaks. All of my previous speakers I've owned seem to 'break' or 'fall apart' at higher SPL and I became convinced that anything less than a 10, or 12, or 15" driver can't reproduce the bass the way I like and want, and need.

Glad to know "long term" isn't hours then - was a little worried about your ears. Makes sense too with those selections... although they're definitely not in my regular rotation, I've enjoyed some Chemical Brothers on many occasions myself - and they do sound better loud.

I think the drivers issue is a valid one, although the levels can definitely be done with smaller (at least with enough of them). When you consider the size of kick drums, timpani, etc. it makes sense that it sounds more "right" with larger transducers... it's not like you can make those sounds hitting a 8" skin or smaller with a mallet. I'm not as sensitive as some however to the sub+mains integration problems... so to me two or more 12"-15" subs takes care of the problem entirely - and for far less money than 99% of truly full-range speakers I've heard.

 

[LDKTA]

Genelec 8361A or 8351B + Genelec Subwoofer(s) of your choice. Learn how to use GLM and enjoy.

 

[Egoquaero]

As we said before, one aspect of using mains that are able to dig low (like the Neumann KH 420) is the possibility of having 4 distributed bass sources. This might give me an edge in achieving a more balanced, smoother and tighter bass overall. On the other hand optimal bass source positioning might not coincide with main speakers positioning... what do you guys think?
I always hear about crossing over at around 80hz. I'm not sure what happens if I don't set the crossovers at all and let all 4 sources of bass run. And then I use Dirac Live 2 coupled with Minidsp SHD to equalize the 4 sources. I wonder how the EQ system decides which bass to attenuate and which not (when choosing between 4)... does anyone know the mechanism?

 

[Gnasherrr]

Genelec 8361A or 8351B + Genelec Subwoofer(s) of your choice. Learn how to use GLM and enjoy.

8351b owner here. based on my own measurement with a calibrated IEC 61672 class 1 mic against glm mic, the glm measurement is not very reliable at all. therefore the eq result cannot be trusted. other than that they are fantastic speakers

 

[LDKTA]

8351b owner here. based on my own measurement with a calibrated IEC 61672 class 1 mic against glm mic, the glm measurement is not very reliable at all. therefore the eq result cannot be trusted. other than that they are fantastic speakers

Good to know. That is interesting.

 

[jhaider]

8351b owner here. based on my own measurement with a calibrated IEC 61672 class 1 mic against glm mic, the glm measurement is not very reliable at all. therefore the eq result cannot be trusted. other than that they are fantastic speakers

Genelec could have an internal calibration for the microphone. If you had two different GLM mics and they measured very differently (assuming the software does not ask for a mic serial number) that would be concerning.

 

[sfdoddsy]

It’s kind of been hinted at, but why do you feel you need to spend 6K plus if you are going to use subs?

Big bass in one box costs big bucks.

Given you are sub-friendly, I’d start from the bottom.

Are the Klipsch subs ideal to cover the range from sub-20hz up to 200hz or so?

I suspect not.

So you replace them with subs that go genuinely deep, and can be crossed over genuinely high.

In consumer land this used to mean easy DIY, but these days folk such as Rythmik, SVS, JL, and even B&W make subs that suit.

A pair of these run in stereo takes care of your bass up to the aforementioned 200hz or so.

So now you need a monitor that can play cleanly down to 60hz at high volume.

Something like the JBL 705 series comes to mind, but also the Neumann/Genelecs/Geithian etc etc.

You don’t need the $6k variant of these speakers because you have subs. Small Neumann/Genelec etc sound just like their big brothers. Sometimes better.

With stereo subs that can crossed high, and satellites that can be crossed low, you have a range from 50hz all the way up to 200hz to find the best crossover point.

Some systems (Neumann for example) come with their own sub crossover and EQ, but if you use a MiniDSP like many here, you can adjust pretty much everything.

Spend a day learning the theory of measurements, and a few hours with REW putting it into practice, and you’ll have a system that will be measurably (and hopefully subjectively) superior to 99.9% of the systems out there.

Add EQ and have icing on your audio cake

You could spend even more on a system like D&D or Kii. But if you like to listen with the dynamic freedom you mention, they’ll need dedicated subs too.

 

[Hephaestus]

For this price range and listening distance my suggestion would be pair of Genelec 8341 augmented with pair of Genelec 7360 subs.

I am biased though as I got 8341 just yesterday.

EDIT: Oops. Just realized you already have subs...

 

[Gnasherrr]

Genelec could have an internal calibration for the microphone. If you had two different GLM mics and they measured very differently (assuming the software does not ask for a mic serial number) that would be concerning.

Yes and No. The thing is the glm measurement raw data is stored in plain text in your computer along with your mic Cal data. The Genelec flavored variably smoothed data used for final EQing is there as well. Therefore nothing is secretive. The glm mic often has ~5db discrepancies against the other measurement microphone which indeed make things a little worrying. I also want to add that the fact that the glm software never does a verification sweep to show you the actual post eq fr is already worrysome alone. From a technical standpoint, you also rarely see measurement microphone being used vertically like the glm mic. Most of the time measurement mics are positioned horizontally for fr measurements. I do not know enough to say if this affects the measurement or not, although one thing I'm sure is that with the glm way of positioning, you never have to move the mic for measurements of channels which makes things easier. Although the convenience could potentially compromise to the data itself.

 

[Egoquaero]

It’s kind of been hinted at, but why do you feel you need to spend 6K plus if you are going to use subs?
Big bass in one box costs big bucks.
Given you are sub-friendly, I’d start from the bottom.
Are the Klipsch subs ideal to cover the range from sub-20hz up to 200hz or so?
I suspect not.
So you replace them with subs that go genuinely deep, and can be crossed over genuinely high.

Hey sfdoddsy, thanks for your help!
I'm not an expert but I think these two Klipsch R-115SW are not bad. And I said before I'm not a deep bass sommelier , so I'm not sure if it's worth for me to spend thousands to get better subs right now. I feel like the law of diminishing returns has an even greater effect on the subwoofer market.
https://hometheaterreview.com/klipsch-r-115sw-subwoofer-reviewed/?page=2
They don’t seem to be bad.




In consumer land this used to mean easy DIY, but these days folk such as Rythmik, SVS, JL, and even B&W make subs that suit.
A pair of these run in stereo takes care of your bass up to the aforementioned 200hz or so.
So now you need a monitor that can play cleanly down to 60hz at high volume.
Something like the JBL 705 series comes to mind, but also the Neumann/Genelecs/Geithian etc etc.
You don’t need the $6k variant of these speakers because you have subs. Small Neumann/Genelec etc sound just like their big brothers. Sometimes better.
With stereo subs that can crossed high, and satellites that can be crossed low, you have a range from 50hz all the way up to 200hz to find the best crossover point.

My question would be: what if I run them all (mains + 2 subs) WITHOUT crossovers and let minidsp decide which bass sources to play and to which degree? Would it be a mess? Or would there be a chance where option 1 (BIG mains + 2 subs) surpass option 2 (SMALL mains + 2 subs) in terms of performance (and controlled slam)? In option 1 we would have 4 sources of deep bass.

 

[steve59]

I buy used. More often than not I can’t get a pair of speakers to sound anything like they did in the showroom demo. I sold the revel salon2’s that I couldn’t get any bass out of (my room and gear) and bought a used pair of dsp 8000’s. Buy used until you find what sounds good to you.

 

[pozz]

8351b owner here. based on my own measurement with a calibrated IEC 61672 class 1 mic against glm mic, the glm measurement is not very reliable at all. therefore the eq result cannot be trusted. other than that they are fantastic speakers

Which class 1 microphone do you have?

 

[Gnasherrr]

Which class 1 microphone do you have?

I have an isemcon 7150

 

[Puddingbuks]

The Focals are quite disappointing for their price: https://www.soundandrecording.de/equipment/focal-trio11-be-−-midfield-monitor-im-test/

Are you only looking at the frequency response?

“Die großen Focal-Monitore liefern messtechnisch und klanglich beeindruckende Ergebnisse. Vor allem sticht die Fähigkeit hervor, hoch dynamisches Musikmaterial ohne Einschränkungen zu reproduzieren. Genau diese Eigenschaft spiegelt sich auch in den Messwerten der Multitonmessung wider, wo die Trio11 Be einen Mittlungspegel von 110 dB erzielt und gleichzeitig Spitzenpegel von 123 dB unkomprimiert wiedergibt.”

But then again, the rating at the end:
+
Messwerte (measurements)
+++
Klangqualität (sound quality)

These somehow sum up the asr limitation.

 

[q3cpma]

Are you only looking at the frequency response?

The three measurements I posted are either quite bad (FR, dispersion) or worse than the competition (max SPL).

These somehow sum up the asr limitation.

Don't fall for wishful thinking, these are still uncontrolled listening tests. Anyway, such an expensive speaker should have the max grade in everything but price.

 

[Puddingbuks]

Don't fall for wishful thinking, these are still uncontrolled listening tests. Anyway, such an expensive speaker should have the max grade in everything but price.

Agreed.

 

[solderdude]

Agreed.

As a Dutch person I totally get your avatar name.
Google translate doesn't do it justice...