Best high end monitors at around 6000-9000 EUR

[Egoquaero]

Dears,
my first post here! Lovely audio forum, you seem to be one of the clearest minded audio forums around. There's just too much nonsense in the audiophile community.
I'm about to get a pair of nice studio monitors.
I would need your help to choose THE ones.

Setup:
- My room is not the biggest but it's properly treated (all corners of the room and early reflections are treated with GIK acoustics panels, bass tritraps and soffits)
- Size is around 4*6 meters (but I might move to somewhere bigger soon). I would mostly listen to them at round 80-90db. 90-100db if I want to party hard.
- Listening distance around 1,8-2 meters.
- I own two Klipsch R-115SW (15 inch consumer subwoofers)
- I own a Minidsp SHD and I'll use it for room correction and integration with the two subs

Who I am and what I want from these monitors:
- I'm more of a "cut the bs" audiophile (I hate this term.. who doesn't?) who just realized that studio monitors are hifi speakers with better bang for the buck (not always true, but most of time). This is never clear in the audiophile community... Nobody in the audiophile world wants you to know that. There must be a conspiracy… Audiophile magazine reviewers hardly ever mention studio monitors, while spending so much time bull****ting over uber expensive amplifiers (or cables or dacs or whatever) with magical properties. I'm just quite fed up with all this noise/nonsense.
- I'll start to produce some music as well (I know that these monitors are overkill for someone who's just starting up with music production.. But hey again, I'll be mostly using them for listening)
- Clarity, transparency, neutrality (whatever these terms might mean) are important, but I guess at this price range, they should all be sufficient at this job


IMPORTANT THINGS:
- I like the impact, the slam of big drivers giving you vibrations all over the body
- I like big sounds (I like to be immersed in music, possibly with a tab of lucy )
- That's why I would skip over small boxes with woofers smaller than 7 inches (I guess size does matter). Even if they're the most accurate monitors of the world, I don't care, I want physical energy

A few models popped up during my short research:
- Focal Trio11 BE (6600 EUR) (10 inch woofer) (30 Hz-40 kHz)
- Neumann KH420 (7300 EUR) (10 inch woofer) (26 Hz to 22 kHz ± 3 dB)
- EVE SC3012 (8600 EUR) (12 inch woofer) (25 Hz to 21 kHz ± 3 dB)
- Adam S5V (12000 EUR, probably too much money) (12 inch woofer) (25Hz–50kHz)
- Please feel free to recommend others!


Few questions:
1) The Focal flagship Trio11 BE is brand new, I think they launched in 2019. The Neumann KH420 are older (2014 release maybe?) but does this mean anything? Audio manufacturers don't seem to reinvent the wheel every other year.
2) Eve SC3012's got a good price for having a 12 inch woofer. I wonder… Does the bigger woofer really translate into a bigger slam for me? (in comparison to the 10 inch woofer Focal and Neumann)
3) I have a few doubts about subwoofer integration. As you know I own two Klipsch 15 inch subs. They're definitely not studio grade subs, but to be honest I'm not a sophiscated 30 hz vibration sommelier. So my main concern is… how should I set up the sub crossover? I know that normally people would set up around 70-80hz, but I think it doesn't make much sense in my case, since my mains can dig so low and so cleanly. I just wonder if it makes sense to set the crossover around 35-40hz, so that the subs will only take care of the lowest frequencies, leaving the rest to the mains.

So yeah.. There you have it. I want studio monitor precision, neutrality and big speaker energy/slam. Any other suggestions?

Thank you so much for your help, guys!
Egoq

 

[q3cpma]

If you plan on using subs, it seem useless to me to buy such big monitors, especially for that listening distance. I'd suggest Neumann's KH310, Genelec's 8351B or one of ME Geithain's 3-way K(ardiod) monitors (https://www.me-geithain.de/en/aktiv-lautsprecher.html) like the RL921K.
If not using subs, the KH420 or the Geithains.
The Focals are quite disappointing for their price: https://www.soundandrecording.de/equipment/focal-trio11-be-−-midfield-monitor-im-test/

 

[Egoquaero]

If you plan on using subs, it seem useless to me to buy such big monitors, especially for that listening distance. I'd suggest Neumann's KH310, Genelec's 8351B or one of ME Geithain's 3-way K(ardiod) monitors (https://www.me-geithain.de/en/aktiv-lautsprecher.html) like the RL921K.
If not using subs, the KH420 or the Geithains.
The Focals are quite disappointing for their price: https://www.soundandrecording.de/equipment/focal-trio11-be-−-midfield-monitor-im-test/

Cheers!
So you think that the difference between Neumann KH 420 with my two subs and Neumann KH 310 with the same subs would be quite negligible?
I'm not an expert but I feel like the 10 inch woofer will deliver more energy, body vibrations in the mid/upper lows than the 8 inch found in KH 310.

 

[q3cpma]

The only differences between the KH420 and KH310 are the cleaner vertical horizontal directivity (limits of the compact layout) and higher SPL capacity. Since the KH310 manages 100 dB at 1 m at 100 Hz for 1% THD alone, and you plan on using subs, I don't think you need the KH420.
Which is why I'd look into other gimmicks than SPL like coaxial and cardioid response if I were you (and had your money).

 

[milezone]

Kii, ATC, and maybe Meyersound Acheron Designers, and larger Genelecs if it's not a near field setup, are some other speakers that come to mind. For near field listening, Genelec 8351s seem to be the best option.

 

[HammerSandwich]

The only differences between the KH420 and KH310 are the cleaner vertical directivity (limits of the compact layout) and higher SPL capacity.

I'm not seeing a big difference in the vertical, but the 420's horizontal polars look much better. The 310's side-by-side layout causes it to go a bit crazy from 500Hz to 1.5kHz.

Since the KH310 manages 100 dB at 1 m at 100 Hz for 1% THD alone, and you plan on using subs, I don't think you need the KH420.

The 420 clearly has a lot more headroom in the bottom few octaves. OTOH, whether that justifies the price difference is a reasonable question. One thing to consider is that by running the mains full-range along with the subs, you have 4 distributed bass sources. That can go a long way to evening out in-room response.

 

[soundwave76]

Genelec’s are missing from your list. Check them out for sure! The new 8351b could be a good choice, or smaller ones with a sub. The included GLM room correction is brilliant.

 

[q3cpma]

I'm not seeing a big difference in the vertical, but the 420's horizontal polars look much better. The 310's side-by-side layout causes it to go a bit crazy from 500Hz to 1.5kHz.

Indeed, confused vertical/horizontal.

The 420 clearly has a lot more headroom in the bottom few octaves. OTOH, whether that justifies the price difference is a reasonable question.

With subs, not really, right? That bass sources idea may may be worth it, on the other hand.

 

[Vintage57]

FWIW I recently bought a pair of Neumann KH 420’s. I too wanted newer technology, my ATC’s were purchased in 2004. It was time for an upgrade.
I now have awesome bass in my room, great imaging and clarity in voices. It‘s a small room, 12 x 27 x 8 and open at the North end and SE end.
I had ATC 150 actives and could not get the bass that the Neumann‘s give me. I think my room is too small for the ATC’s.
What I want to share is I made the mistake of thinking a 10” driver was going to produce less bass than the 15”. So I picked up 2 Neumann KH 805 subs. I tried to intergrate them and found that the imaging and clarity were better without subs. The bass was cleaner to sub 30Hz without the subs as well. so now I have 2 KH 805 subs for sale.
I highly recommend the KH420‘s.

Keep is updated with your finding.

 

[Wes]

a speaker that uses its own DSP - Kii or Dutch 8c if they fit your price range

this is going to be a huge (if not Yuge) increase in fidelity, and if too expensive now, the price will come down as the R&D is amortized over more units/brands

so you might wait for a Kii2...

 

[HammerSandwich]

With subs, not really, right?

I feel the answers depend mostly on listening material, SPL habits, and room acoustics.[/QUOTE]

 

[q3cpma]

a speaker that uses its own DSP - Kii or Dutch 8c if they fit your price range

this is going to be a huge (if not Yuge) increase in fidelity, and if too expensive now, the price will come down as the R&D is amortized over more units/brands

so you might wait for a Kii2...

Isn't the Kii quite limited in max SPL?

 

[direstraitsfan98]

Isn't the Kii quite limited in max SPL?

Yes, for sure. I would worry what kind of distortion numbers you are approaching when you are hitting peak or even RMS numbers under 50hz on these things, or even under 100hz. Probably double digits!

For me, vanishingly low distortion numbers and capability to handle high SPL for prolonged periods of time are important. I don't think Kii 3 or Dutch and Dutch 8c would be good for me, but if those are not important to you, the form factor, and the nature of an all in one powered solution of a powered monitor is mightly appealing. I have seriously considered downgrading to Dutch and Dutch 8c many times so I could re arrange my whole room to revolve around a computer desk.

 

[suttondesign]

I have seriously considered downgrading to Dutch and Dutch 8c many times so I could re arrange my whole room to revolve around a computer desk.

I like the smaller footprint of the Dutch 8C, plus its amenability to being placed closer to the wall. Since I never get anywhere near high SPL, I don't stress out about the distortion below 50hz or thereabouts. One of these days, I might get a potent 12" sub to fill in, but the 8C are so satisfying and small that I may never bother. I will say, the flat in-room response of the 8C has got to be heard to be believed.

 

[Purité Audio]

Yes, for sure. I would worry what kind of distortion numbers you are approaching when you are hitting peak or even RMS numbers under 50hz on these things, or even under 100hz. Probably double digits!

For me, vanishingly low distortion numbers and capability to handle high SPL for prolonged periods of time are important. I don't think Kii 3 or Dutch and Dutch 8c would be good for me, but if those are not important to you, the form factor, and the nature of an all in one powered solution of a powered monitor is mightly appealing. I have seriously considered downgrading to Dutch and Dutch 8c many times so I could re arrange my whole room to revolve around a computer desk.

Which speakers do you use at the moment?
Keith

 

[LancerFIN]

I would love to suggest the Genelec 8351. Speaker design is finally moving forwards. Guess size will always win though as top of the line 14 000 euro/pair 1238A SAM seems to be more popular than the cheaper models combined. Finnish audiophiles are simply not buying the 8351 or 8260. Reading through the Genelec thread I can see many opinions saying that the 8351 is adequate in nearfield only. For living rooms you need the 1238A SAM. nuts.

 

[digicidal]

For me, vanishingly low distortion numbers and capability to handle high SPL for prolonged periods of time are important.

Well that's kind of a self-resolving issue... given enough of both and you won't have to worry about hearing anything at all eventually. I do understand the distortion aspect and pointing at the bass levels where it's more anemic... but I think 115dB sustained should probably be enough with everything else. CDC sets safe exposure at that level at 30 seconds, though OSHA will give you 15 minutes.

Just curious how even short peaks at those levels aren't more of an obstacle to enjoyment than the layout of your room? I'm fine with a reference level of 100dB for cinema... but with musical content, I'd be uncomfortable at those levels for very long at all. Maybe you have a very large room and are quite a distance from the monitors?

 

[pierre]

I can confirm that the smaller Focal Trio is enough for a room your size with some to spare. They are around 4K€.
if you want deep bass you can always add a sub (that is if you don’t have neighbors). I was disappointed by the focal one which was ok with focal solo but cannot keep up with the trio. A SVS or Rythmic sub is a better deal.

as many proposed: 2 genelec 8331 + sub 7360 or 2 8351 also does it well but you pay a premium for Genelec.

the largeNeumann is better than the Focal but twice the price ...

if you are in Europe, a lot of pro shops proposed to listen to them side by side. i

 

[q3cpma]

Well that's kind of a self-resolving issue... given enough of both and you won't have to worry about hearing anything at all eventually. I do understand the distortion aspect and pointing at the bass levels where it's more anemic... but I think 115dB sustained should probably be enough with everything else. CDC sets safe exposure at that level at 30 seconds, though OSHA will give you 15 minutes.

Just curious how even short peaks at those levels aren't more of an obstacle to enjoyment than the layout of your room? I'm fine with a reference level of 100dB for cinema... but with musical content, I'd be uncomfortable at those levels for very long at all. Maybe you have a very large room and are quite a distance from the monitors?

I think that the guy who posted that graph was talking about the fact that the THD wasn't specified. Such curves are usually given for 1%.

 

[Vintage57]

I think that the guy who posted that graph was talking about the fact that the THD wasn't specified. Such curves are usually given for 1%.

Or 3% or 10%, IOW we don’t know as there’s not enough information. Typical of the industry unfortunately. Like the famous FR claims of 20-20.