Best headphone under 500 euros w/o need for amplifier

[Robin L]

HD6XX is not available in EU unfortunately. Saw some reviews and seems that it's a well balance between 600 and 650, also extremely good value.

Measurements indicate it's a 650, with an upper bass/lower midrange emphasis absent from the 600.

 

[somy]

You could also get the Hifiman Deva, got an integrated dac/amp/bt module with it.

Thanks, I already have b&o h95 so not interested in another bt headphone

 

[ninetylol]

Thanks, I already have b&o h95 so not interested in another bt headphone

Yeh but you can use it wired (3,5mm or use usb module wired per USB c. Acts as a dac+amp then)

 

[somy]

Did some more research (can’t try them unfortunately):
Easy to drive: Sundara > K702 > HD650
Bass: HD650 > Sundara > K702
Mid range: Sundara > HD650 = K702
High range: K702 > Sundara > HD650
Classical music: HD650 > Sundara > K702
Vocal: K702 > Sundara > HD650
Jazz: Sundara > HD650 > K702

Difficult choice.

 

[ninetylol]

Did some more research (can’t try them unfortunately):
Easy to drive: Sundara > K702 > HD650
Bass: HD650 > Sundara > K702
Mid range: Sundara > HD650 = K702
High range: K702 > Sundara > HD650
Classical music: HD650 > Sundara > K702
Vocal: K702 > Sundara > HD650
Jazz: Sundara > HD650 > K702

Difficult choice.

Sundara is the clear winner, but you need an amp for all 3 of them IMHO

 

[somy]

Sundara is the clear winner, but you need an amp for all 3 of them IMHO

Yes I’m aware of that. Looks like it’s possible to drive them by small amp like 9038S, need one for iPhone anyways

 

[hhkg34]

Focal Elex is very easy to drive

 

[Robbo99999]

What do you think the best HiFi quality headphone under 500 euros which can be driven satisfactorily by MacBook without the need for external DAC/AMP?
My list consists of:

• AKG K702
• AKG K712 pro
• Sennheiser hd 660S
• Hifiman sundara

Any other options?

I'm gonna recommend you get the K702. I own three sets of decent headphones and I've EQ'd them all to the Headphone Harman Curve, and I like them in this order from best to worst (the worst is still very good though): AKG K702 > NAD HP50 > Sennheiser HD600. The main reason I like the K702 the best is for the excellent soundstage & imaging so they don't really sound like headphones to me, more like speakers. They also take bass EQ better than the HD600 whilst having a similar level of musical detail as the HD600, the HD600 sounds a bit too much "in your head" and is a bit harsher than the other two headphones (all comparisons done after EQ). I'd go with the AKG K702 and if you know you like the Harman Headphone Curve you can try the EQ that I did, which is based on Innerfidelity measurements, and recently Jaakkopasanen created a "Calibrated Harman Headphone Target Curve" for Innerfidelity measurements by comparing headphone measurements between the "Gold Standard" of Oratory's measurements with Innerfidelity measurements and was able to see where the differences lie & thereby create a Target Curve that emulates the official Harman Headphone Curve that Oratory uses....Oratory hasn't measured the AKG K702 so that's why you have to use Innerfidelity measurements and the "Calibrated Harman Headphone Curve" that Jaakkopasanen has devised:
https://github.com/jaakkopasanen/AutoEq

My EQ for AKG K702: (negative preamp of -4.8dB required)

I've compared this EQ against my Harman Curve Room EQ'd speakers (JBL 308p Mkii) and I think they sound very similar, so for me this is an accurate EQ of the AKG K702.....however different people have different HRTF's so a set of headphones or a particular headphone EQ will sound slightly different (or really quite different) when compared between different people, so headphones aren't a one size fits all situation.

I see you're on a MAC so I have no real idea if that can drive the AKG K702 sucessfully or not. The K702 is not a particularly hard to drive headphone, it's slightly easier to drive than the Sennheiser HD600 in my experience.....I do know that my K702 sounds horrible driven from my PC directly, but it sounds fine with my weakest DAC/headphone amp which is a Xonar U7 DAC/headphone amp that outputs a max of 1V.

If you're gonna be EQ'ing your headphones then I do recommend you get a DAC & headphone amp because EQ'ing requires that you use a digital negative preamp in the region of say -4.0 to -10.0dB typically depending on the EQ, so that can reduce power reaching the headphone by around half or more (-6.0dB is a halving of the power).

EDIT: One caveat to getting the AKG K702, they are known for having reliability issues associated with poor soldering of the wires in the earcups. The soldering failed on one of the wires in my right earcup after about 2-3yrs of daily usage - I then bought a soldering iron kit for only £16 and taught myself how to solder (in about 1hr) from watching YouTube vids, so I was able to open up the headphones and solder the wire back on. Five years on from my initial ownership all the wire solder points have now failed in the right earcup and so far I've replaced all wires and all soldering in the right ear cup and it hasn't failed since (there's 2 wires & 4 solder points in the right ear cup).....it's a relatively simple if fiddly process if you're a technically minded/practical type of person.

EDIT#2: If you're not gonna EQ then the Sennheiser HD600 is the best one to get out of the 3 headphones I own as it's the best sounding headphone I've ever heard straight out the box with no EQ, and it also doesn't have the reliability issues of the K702. In fact I might go so far to say that the HD600 is the one headphone that sounds better and retains it's best characteristics when not EQ'd. It's particularly beautiful on vocal orientated music.

 

[robertozappala]

Altre opzioni?

AKG 371 impedance 32 ohm
Ollo S4X 32 ohm
Sennheiser hd 560s 120 ohm

 

[somy]

Sundara is the clear winner, but you need an amp for all 3 of them IMHO

Really does Sundara outperform HD650 when both are driven properly? I read HD650 has its strength (bass classical music etc).

 

[ninetylol]

Really does Sundara outperform HD650 when both are driven properly? I read HD650 has its strength (bass classical music etc).

every headphone got its strength and weaknesses but the overall package on the sundara is the best.

 

[3125b]

The soldering failed on one of the wires in my right earcup after about 2-3yrs of daily usage

That's pretty good, my first pair lasted not even two month. Definitely not something to import or buy used.
They draw a decent amount of current, so a source capable of delivering that is requred, PC mainboards usually don't, my Smartphone doesn't either, but then again, they are not that challenging, my older iPad (with a decent amp back then) works well with them.

But nonetheless, despite owning more expensive and arguably technically superior headphones, I find myself going back to the K702 regularly (with my subjective EQ mainly). For 129€/$ they are very good sounding headphones that respond well to EQ in my experience.

 

[renaudrenaud]

AKG K361
AKG K371
AKG K702

 

[Nobunaga]

The Sennheiser HD25 with aftermarket pads sound awesome, they can compete with my Fostex TH-X00 purple hearts which i really love and cost 4x as much. The Fostex are already good headphones for the price.

The Fostex have a little bit more bass and less mids. The aftermarket pads made a huge different, gave the Sennheisers a tremendous bass boost, giving them nearly as much bass as the Fostex.

I am actually listening to both, depending on my mood.

Also i used the tune up kit for the Fostex...

These are the pads: https://customcans.co.uk/s/s/index....-white-leather-ear-head-pads-replacement.html

So considering the Sennheisers only cost 100euros and the pads 22euros, it's crazy value.

Consider buying some used headphones, there are plenty of mint condition headphones available for half the price. Here in Switzerland there are a pair of Fostex TR-X00 Mahagony in new condition for 270 Euros https://www.tutti.ch/de/vi/st-gallen/tv-audio/audio-hi-fi/fostex-tr-x00-mahogany-headphones/40372876

Or a pair of Purple Hearts in Finnland for 450 Euros https://www.tori.fi/etela-savo/Fostex_TR_X00_Purpleheart___lampaannahka_pehmuste_74314928.htm

If you wanna buy new ones then within your budget:

Hifiman Sundara
Beyerdynamic DT1990

You can always order from Amazon, you have free shipping and returns you can try these headphones out.

 

[somy]

I'm gonna recommend you get the K702. I own three sets of decent headphones and I've EQ'd them all to the Headphone Harman Curve, and I like them in this order from best to worst (the worst is still very good though): AKG K702 > NAD HP50 > Sennheiser HD600. The main reason I like the K702 the best is for the excellent soundstage & imaging so they don't really sound like headphones to me, more like speakers. They also take bass EQ better than the HD600 whilst having a similar level of musical detail as the HD600, the HD600 sounds a bit too much "in your head" and is a bit harsher than the other two headphones (all comparisons done after EQ). I'd go with the AKG K702 and if you know you like the Harman Headphone Curve you can try the EQ that I did, which is based on Innerfidelity measurements, and recently Jaakkopasanen created a "Calibrated Harman Headphone Target Curve" for Innerfidelity measurements by comparing headphone measurements between the "Gold Standard" of Oratory's measurements with Innerfidelity measurements and was able to see where the differences lie & thereby create a Target Curve that emulates the official Harman Headphone Curve that Oratory uses....Oratory hasn't measured the AKG K702 so that's why you have to use Innerfidelity measurements and the "Calibrated Harman Headphone Curve" that Jaakkopasanen has devised:
https://github.com/jaakkopasanen/AutoEq

My EQ for AKG K702: (negative preamp of -4.8dB required)
View attachment 86752

I've compared this EQ against my Harman Curve Room EQ'd speakers (JBL 308p Mkii) and I think they sound very similar, so for me this is an accurate EQ of the AKG K702.....however different people have different HRTF's so a set of headphones or a particular headphone EQ will sound slightly different (or really quite different) when compared between different people, so headphones aren't a one size fits all situation.

I see you're on a MAC so I have no real idea if that can drive the AKG K702 sucessfully or not. The K702 is not a particularly hard to drive headphone, it's slightly easier to drive than the Sennheiser HD600 in my experience.....I do know that my K702 sounds horrible driven from my PC directly, but it sounds fine with my weakest DAC/headphone amp which is a Xonar U7 DAC/headphone amp that outputs a max of 1V.

If you're gonna be EQ'ing your headphones then I do recommend you get a DAC & headphone amp because EQ'ing requires that you use a digital negative preamp in the region of say -4.0 to -10.0dB typically depending on the EQ, so that can reduce power reaching the headphone by around half or more (-6.0dB is a halving of the power).

EDIT: One caveat to getting the AKG K702, they are known for having reliability issues associated with poor soldering of the wires in the earcups. The soldering failed on one of the wires in my right earcup after about 2-3yrs of daily usage - I then bought a soldering iron kit for only £16 and taught myself how to solder (in about 1hr) from watching YouTube vids, so I was able to open up the headphones and solder the wire back on. Five years on from my initial ownership all the wire solder points have now failed in the right earcup and so far I've replaced all wires and all soldering in the right ear cup and it hasn't failed since (there's 2 wires & 4 solder points in the right ear cup).....it's a relatively simple if fiddly process if you're a technically minded/practical type of person.

EDIT#2: If you're not gonna EQ then the Sennheiser HD600 is the best one to get out of the 3 headphones I own as it's the best sounding headphone I've ever heard straight out the box with no EQ, and it also doesn't have the reliability issues of the K702. In fact I might go so far to say that the HD600 is the one headphone that sounds better and retains it's best characteristics when not EQ'd. It's particularly beautiful on vocal orientated music.

Hi thanks! I'm not sure how to do EQ properly and would like to avoid if possible. I think K702 is very good value but I'm just afraid the bass is not enough (based on reviews), I have no way to listen to it unfortunately. Maybe K712 works better for me? Can you help to confirm the internal size of the ear pad? I have big ears and I read different numbers online. I tried HD650 and it barely fits, hopefully K702/K712pro is better in that regard.

 

[Robbo99999]

Hi thanks! I'm not sure how to do EQ properly and would like to avoid if possible. I think K702 is very good value but I'm just afraid the bass is not enough (based on reviews), I have no way to listen to it unfortunately. Maybe K712 works better for me? Can you help to confirm the internal size of the ear pad? I have big ears and I read different numbers online. I tried HD650 and it barely fits, hopefully K702/K712pro is better in that regard.

Well if you can find a way to do EQ on your Mac, then that's the best solution, you'll want a solution that is able to implement parametric filters.
K712 does look like it has more bass, but the frequency response looks messed up to me:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/l0ucv96zjjp8cvv/AKG K712.pdf?dl=0
K702 is similar to the K702 Anniversary Edition listed at the following link and is a more accurate frequency response:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/j6yr8g87j2nb1yo/AKG K702 65th Anniversary Edition.pdf?dl=0

Those are links to Oratory's EQ's who's generally the most respected headphone EQ resource.

If you're not gonna EQ though, then I recommend the Sennheiser HD600 as it's a really quite accurate frequency response, and in my experience they're the best sounding headphone I've ever heard without EQ:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/dm0m6u3s3b4zqzl/Sennheiser HD600.pdf?dl=0

But if you're gonna EQ then I recommend the K702 and following my EQ I posted you - but it's possible you won't like it, you kind of have to know if you like the Headphone Harman Curve. K702 also has reliability issues which I described, but if you're happy fixing them as I do then why not. I love this headphone for it's fantastic imaging & soundstage and to me they sound more like speakers than any headphone I've ever tried.

If I was you, I'd try to find out if you like the Headphone Harman Curve, so have you got a headphone at the moment that is on any of the following 2 lists, if you do then learn how to apply the EQ and listen to them and see if you think the EQ improves the sound. If it sounds good then get Sennheiser HD600 if you don't want to EQ them on a daily basis for whatever reason, but if you're gonna do most of your listening EQ'd then I'd say go with K702 if you can live with the reliability issues. So check if your current headphones are at either two of these lists:
https://www.reddit.com/r/oratory1990/wiki/index/list_of_presets
https://github.com/jaakkopasanen/AutoEq/blob/master/results/RANKING.md

Headphones are such personal things in terms of what is preferred, as the headphone interacts differently with different people's physical anatomy (the topic of HRTF), so preference for a certain headphone is so much more unpredictable than recommending a speaker to someone....but if you do what I suggest in my previous paragraph that will give you an idea if the Headphone Harman Curve sounds good to you, and that's the best starting point in trying to find a headphone that sounds right & good to you.

EDIT: You asked me about earcup size. K702 is circular inside and about 6cm in diameter. HD600 (& I guess HD650) is about 7cm long by 4cm wide, so with your ears struggling to fit inside HD650 you have to ask yourself if that was because your ears were to long or too wide. HD650 is pretty roomy though as far as headphones go, so you must have pretty big ears indeed, so that is a good question for you to ask. Yep, K702 is 6cm in internal diameter (circular inside, not oval).

 

[somy]

Well if you can find a way to do EQ on your Mac, then that's the best solution, you'll want a solution that is able to implement parametric filters.
K712 does look like it has more bass, but the frequency response looks messed up to me:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/l0ucv96zjjp8cvv/AKG K712.pdf?dl=0
K702 is similar to the K702 Anniversary Edition listed at the following link and is a more accurate frequency response:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/j6yr8g87j2nb1yo/AKG K702 65th Anniversary Edition.pdf?dl=0

Those are links to Oratory's EQ's who's generally the most respected headphone EQ resource.

If you're not gonna EQ though, then I recommend the Sennheiser HD600 as it's a really quite accurate frequency response, and in my experience they're the best sounding headphone I've ever heard without EQ:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/dm0m6u3s3b4zqzl/Sennheiser HD600.pdf?dl=0

But if you're gonna EQ then I recommend the K702 and following my EQ I posted you - but it's possible you won't like it, you kind of have to know if you like the Headphone Harman Curve. K702 also has reliability issues which I described, but if you're happy fixing them as I do then why not. I love this headphone for it's fantastic imaging & soundstage and to me they sound more like speakers than any headphone I've ever tried.

If I was you, I'd try to find out if you like the Headphone Harman Curve, so have you got a headphone at the moment that is on any of the following 2 lists, if you do then learn how to apply the EQ and listen to them and see if you think the EQ improves the sound. If it sounds good then get Sennheiser HD600 if you don't want to EQ them on a daily basis for whatever reason, but if you're gonna do most of your listening EQ'd then I'd say go with K702 if you can live with the reliability issues. So check if your current headphones are at either two of these lists:
https://www.reddit.com/r/oratory1990/wiki/index/list_of_presets
https://github.com/jaakkopasanen/AutoEq/blob/master/results/RANKING.md

Headphones are such personal things in terms of what is preferred, as the headphone interacts differently with different people's physical anatomy (the topic of HRTF), so preference for a certain headphone is so much more unpredictable than recommending a speaker to someone....but if you do what I suggest in my previous paragraph that will give you an idea if the Headphone Harman Curve sounds good to you, and that's the best starting point in trying to find a headphone that sounds right & good to you.

EDIT: You asked me about earcup size. K702 is circular inside and about 6cm in diameter. HD600 (& I guess HD650) is about 7cm long by 4cm wide, so with your ears struggling to fit inside HD650 you have to ask yourself if that was because your ears were to long or too wide. HD650 is pretty roomy though as far as headphones go, so you must have pretty big ears indeed, so that is a good question for you to ask. Yep, K702 is 6cm in internal diameter (circular inside, not oval).

It's because my ears are too long - a little more than 70mm I'm afraid. If K702 is around 6cm inside I'm not sure if it will fit. HD650 is 7cm and it almost fits except that I can feel the cushion around my ears. The ones that I find might fit are HD800S and Ananda, but both are very expensive.

 

[Robbo99999]

It's because my ears are too long - a little more than 70mm I'm afraid. If K702 is around 6cm inside I'm not sure if it will fit. HD650 is 7cm and it almost fits except that I can feel the cushion around my ears. The ones that I find might fit are HD800S and Ananda, but both are very expensive.

Well, this is a good point, if it doesn't fit comfortably then there's no point and it might change the sound too, and certainly will if the headphones aren't able to make a good seal around your ear because they're resting on your earlobe or something, ha! I wouldn't go with the K702 then, it won't fit you. I don't really know the size of earcups of different headphones, so I can't recommend you any larger ones. Just trying to think if there's a link that lists such a thing......

I found this: http://www.basshead.club/earpad-sizes/
That lists HD800 like you mentioned, and that's about it.

I came accross the Beyerdynamic DT-770 Pro which looks like a massive round interior earcup, but haven't found the dimensions:
https://www.thomann.de/gb/beyerdynamic_dt770pro.htm?sid=d066d2b0082835ef83c7448b79c2ed03
These ones also EQ very well with a good frequency response once EQ'd, but kind of a crazy frequency response if you don't EQ them:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/npqrz9dqdda292x/Beyerdynamic DT770 (new earpads).pdf?dl=0
Lots of reach into the bass with those headphones. They do an 80ohm version of that headphone too, which would be easier to drive with your macbook.

Well that's all I've found after looking for a few minutes.

EDIT: and there's the open back Byerdynamic too (DT-990): https://www.thomann.de/gb/beyerdynamic_dt990pro.htm That looks the same at the 770 Pro I linked earlier except it's an open backed headphone, which is a bit more 'audiophile' and might deliver a better sound. It's a less crazy frequency response, but would benefit from some EQ to prevent it being too bright:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/gryfjs3i30c7r5h/Beyerdynamic DT990 (new earpads).pdf?dl=0
Pretty good reach into the bass when EQ'd.
You might struggle to drive this headphone properly using your macbook. I'd consider a headphone amplifier and DAC or a combo where the DAC & headphone amp are already combined.

 

[somy]

Well, this is a good point, if it doesn't fit comfortably then there's no point and it might change the sound too, and certainly will if the headphones aren't able to make a good seal around your ear because they're resting on your earlobe or something, ha! I wouldn't go with the K702 then, it won't fit you. I don't really know the size of earcups of different headphones, so I can't recommend you any larger ones. Just trying to think if there's a link that lists such a thing......

I found this: http://www.basshead.club/earpad-sizes/
That lists HD800 like you mentioned, and that's about it.

I came accross the Beyerdynamic DT-770 Pro which looks like a massive round interior earcup, but haven't found the dimensions:
https://www.thomann.de/gb/beyerdynamic_dt770pro.htm?sid=d066d2b0082835ef83c7448b79c2ed03
These ones also EQ very well with a good frequency response once EQ'd, but kind of a crazy frequency response if you don't EQ them:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/npqrz9dqdda292x/Beyerdynamic DT770 (new earpads).pdf?dl=0
Lots of reach into the bass with those headphones. They do an 80ohm version of that headphone too, which would be easier to drive with your macbook.

Well that's all I've found after looking for a few minutes.

EDIT: and there's the open back Byerdynamic too (DT-990): https://www.thomann.de/gb/beyerdynamic_dt990pro.htm That looks the same at the 770 Pro I linked earlier except it's an open backed headphone, which is a bit more 'audiophile' and might deliver a better sound. It's a less crazy frequency response, but would benefit from some EQ to prevent it being too bright:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/gryfjs3i30c7r5h/Beyerdynamic DT990 (new earpads).pdf?dl=0
Pretty good reach into the bass when EQ'd.
You might struggle to drive this headphone properly using your macbook. I'd consider a headphone amplifier and DAC or a combo where the DAC & headphone amp are already combined.

Thank you I wish there are more options :-(

 

[ninetylol]

So this thread is pretty much useless now?