Best floorstanders <£5k/$6k

[DLxP]

I own ATC SCM40s and am toying with a change. I'm wondering whether I can find a lot better in the £5k ($6k) price range.

The replacements would have to be aesthetically friendly too, which in my room means white or wood.

I've not seen many measurements for SCM40s, aside from:

http://www.avmentor.net/reviews/2014/atc_scm40_2.shtml

I'm not sure how reliable those measurements are though.

I've also seen mid-dome measurements, including the ones Troels Graveson produced, which do look excellent:

http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/ATC-SM75-150.htm

I'm considering going all in for ATC active SCM40As, or I could stay with my passive SCM40s, or I could go with something else entirely.

Ultimately, I'm after the most transparent speakers possible, in terms of in-room performance, when placed about 12" out from the wall.

You're going to recommend Revel now, aren't you? I certainly do want to listen to the F208, but unfortunately black speakers won't work aesthetically in my sitting room. I know the F206 comes in white though, so that's a front-runner.

I suppose the difficulty is, without measurements for the SCM40s, I can't tell whether any speakers in its price range perform better. That leaves relying on a) subjective impressions, and b) assessment of the quality of driver materials/construction. On both those fronts, the SCM40s seem to excel.

 

[kaka89]

Using the same speaker, and I did my measurement and match with the one magazine shown (3db dip in 3kHz).
Objectivity it isn't a flat speaker, I think you can easily find speaker measure better, for example KEF.
I once owned Focal 926 and Harbeth M30.1, which I believe measurements better than ATC 40, but subjectivity I like ATC the most.
So will a better measured speaker subjectively sounds better and fit your room better, you have to listen to find out.

D&D 8C and LXmini are both on my upgrade list, because they are a very different speaker.
I want to try something different, not just better.

 

[tw99]

What does "better" mean to you ? I.e. are you looking for more bass, more treble, more detail, more efficiency ?

In my experience any ATC speaker will give a pretty accurate rendition of the source material, within the capability of the size of box. Their design can make them appear bass light compared to other ported speakers that might have a big peak at some frequency. But they are definitely more of a monitor than something voiced to sound "nice".

 

[DLxP]

What does "better" mean to you ? I.e. are you looking for more bass, more treble, more detail, more efficiency ?

In my experience any ATC speaker will give a pretty accurate rendition of the source material, within the capability of the size of box. Their design can make them appear bass light compared to other ported speakers that might have a big peak at some frequency. But they are definitely more of a monitor than something voiced to sound "nice".

Better means a more transparent in-room performance. I've read a bit of Toole and in the abstract am convinced by the tilting Harman in-room FR. So better would mean a smoother tilting FR and a generally more transparent speaker.

Lack of bass depth isn't necessarily a deal breaker. I'll likely run whatever speaker I use with multiple subs. I suppose that suggests I should look at standmounts speakers too, but I generally prefer the appearance of floorstanders.

 

[kaka89]

What does "better" mean to you ? I.e. are you looking for more bass, more treble, more detail, more efficiency ?

In my experience any ATC speaker will give a pretty accurate rendition of the source material, within the capability of the size of box. Their design can make them appear bass light compared to other ported speakers that might have a big peak at some frequency. But they are definitely more of a monitor than something voiced to sound "nice".

"Better" here means objectivity better, ie flatter.

I like my ATC 40 better than any other speaker setup that I had tried (Focal 926, Harbeth M30.1, KEF Q300), but the frequency response of it probably are not the flattest among all the others. So I start to think a flat response is not the final answer.

I want to find a speaker that can create an unique experience, maybe bigger sounds stage, more depth, better imaging.

Here is my (predicted) in room response after EQ, just for your reference.

 

[tw99]

Better means a more transparent in-room performance. I've read a bit of Toole and in the abstract am convinced by the tilting Harman in-room FR. So better would mean a smoother tilting FR and a generally more transparent speaker.

Lack of bass depth isn't necessarily a deal breaker. I'll likely run whatever speaker I use with multiple subs. I suppose that suggests I should look at standmounts speakers too, but I generally prefer the appearance of floorstanders.

I use DSP room correction box with my SCM40s to provide the friendly downward sloping frequency curve.

I honestly don't think you will find many people saying that ATC speakers lack transparency, no matter what the nuances of the measurements. In general people complain they are TOO transparent/revealing.

 

[DLxP]

I use DSP room correction box with my SCM40s to provide the friendly downward sloping frequency curve.

I honestly don't think you will find many people saying that ATC speakers lack transparency, no matter what the nuances of the measurements. In general people complain they are TOO transparent/revealing.

Yes, I agree with that. The typical review statement is that they might be too revealing. I've always wondered whether that might be a bit of a trope though, that's just gained currency through repetition. That said, I do find them to be revealing, albeit hard to drive (I have a NAD M27 though, which is up to the job).

I should say, I actually do very much enjoy my SCM40s. I'm just wondering: could I get more transparency/clarity/performance for the same sort of money? What prompted my question is, I'm changing my room around, and now's a reasonably opportune time to change speaker, if there's any point. There may not be.

I used to use Dirac, and will be going back to it soon, so may do as you do and use it to create a slope. An old uncorrected measurement from Dirac:

And a REW measurement (1/6th smoothing):

 

[kaka89]

All measurement shows dip in 400Hz and 3000Hz, at crossover point haha

 

[simple6]

It would be so awesome if we could get an ATC speaker, preferably from their mid-ranges to be tested by Amir. For many folks they are considered reference speakers in terms of transparency and realness. I've never heard one in person but I'm convinced enough already to thinking of buying a pair of active 40s at some point.

The new JBL 3800 measure pretty spot on and, to my taste, they look stunning. They are pretty huge in size though, especially for European kind of flats.

 

[Ilkless]

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ased-speaker-designs.6441/page-51#post-398172

Lab data shows how remarkably overrated ATCs are. There are more compact mid domes that utterly obliterate the vaunted ATC dome in every way: linearity, dispersion, distortion, max SPL, intermodulation. I suggest skipping stuff that have only lasted so long because of an unwarranted cult of personality this time round.

KEF R11 is a very good choice. The HDI-3800 too. Out of left field is the Gradient Revolution. I found them breathtakingly good speakers, with a coaxial midrange-tweeter and dual 12-inch woofers in an open-baffle arrangement, that may yield smoother bass response in-room.

 

[q3cpma]

I own ATC SCM40s and am toying with a change. I'm wondering whether I can find a lot better in the £5k ($6k) price range.

The replacements would have to be aesthetically friendly too, which in my room means white or wood.

I've not seen many measurements for SCM40s, aside from:

http://www.avmentor.net/reviews/2014/atc_scm40_2.shtml

I'm not sure how reliable those measurements are though.

I've also seen mid-dome measurements, including the ones Troels Graveson produced, which do look excellent:

http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/ATC-SM75-150.htm

I'm considering going all in for ATC active SCM40As, or I could stay with my passive SCM40s, or I could go with something else entirely.

Ultimately, I'm after the most transparent speakers possible, in terms of in-room performance, when placed about 12" out from the wall.

You're going to recommend Revel now, aren't you? I certainly do want to listen to the F208, but unfortunately black speakers won't work aesthetically in my sitting room. I know the F206 comes in white though, so that's a front-runner.

I suppose the difficulty is, without measurements for the SCM40s, I can't tell whether any speakers in its price range perform better. That leaves relying on a) subjective impressions, and b) assessment of the quality of driver materials/construction. On both those fronts, the SCM40s seem to excel.

@Vintage57 upgraded from ATC SCM150ASL to Neumann KH420 and got blown away, if you want some testimonies. Never spend that much money without measurements, or you may end up like this.

 

[Ilkless]

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ased-speaker-designs.6441/page-51#post-398172

Lab data shows how remarkably overrated ATCs are. There are more compact mid domes that utterly obliterate the vaunted ATC dome in every way: linearity, dispersion, distortion, max SPL, intermodulation. I suggest skipping stuff that have only lasted so long because of an unwarranted cult of personality this time round.

KEF R11 is a very good choice. The HDI-3800 too. Out of left field is the Gradient Revolution. I found them breathtakingly good speakers, with a coaxial midrange-tweeter and dual 12-inch woofers in an open-baffle arrangement, that may yield smoother bass response in-room.

Off-axis for the Gradient. This was the first revision 25 years ago. Look at that directivity below 10kHz. The ripples are a consequence of on-axis interference, which exists even in the vaunted Revel F206/8. The latest active revision flattens it out even more and driver advances have reduced the ripple, but the core tech is as excellent as it was even so long ago. We have known how to engineer great speakers for as long time, and Jorma Salmi should be considered one of the greats.

 

[DLxP]

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ased-speaker-designs.6441/page-51#post-398172

Lab data shows how remarkably overrated ATCs are. There are more compact mid domes that utterly obliterate the vaunted ATC dome in every way: linearity, dispersion, distortion, max SPL, intermodulation. I suggest skipping stuff that have only lasted so long because of an unwarranted cult of personality this time round.

KEF R11 is a very good choice. The HDI-3800 too. Out of left field is the Gradient Revolution. I found them breathtakingly good speakers, with a coaxial midrange-tweeter and dual 12-inch woofers in an open-baffle arrangement, that may yield smoother bass response in-room.

Some excellent suggestions there, thanks.

Funnily enough, it was the R11s that led me to the SCM40s. I demoed them side-by-side and preferred the ATCs. That said, the room I demoed them in was awful, and the R11s sounded too bass heavy. I suspect their bass output was interacting with room modes in a way the ATC's lesser bass output wasn't, so it wasn't an instructive/fair
demo really.

It would be so awesome if we could get an ATC speaker, preferably from their mid-ranges to be tested by Amir. For many folks they are considered reference speakers in terms of transparency and realness. I've never heard one in person but I'm convinced enough already to thinking of buying a pair of active 40s at some point.

The new JBL 3800 measure pretty spot on and, to my taste, they look stunning. They are pretty huge in size though, especially for European kind of flats.

The new HDIs are certainly interesting. It looks like they may have some vertical dispersion issues though.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/jbl-hdi-3600-speaker-review.13027/

@Vintage57 upgraded from ATC SCM150ASL to Neumann KH420 and got blown away, if you want some testimonies. Never spend that much money without measurements, or you may end up like this.

I'm increasingly finding myself wondering how I could integrate Neumanns into my room, aesthetically speaking. They're too ugly for a family sitting room. Their performance though, really does look exceptional.

 

[Ilkless]

Some excellent suggestions there, thanks.

Funnily enough, it was the R11s that lead me to the SCM40s. I demoed them side-by-side and preferred the ATCs. That said, the room I demoed them in was awful, and the R11s sounded too bass heavy. I suspect their bass output was interacting with room modes in a way the ATC's lesser bass output wasn't, so it wasn't an instructive/fair
demo really.


The new HDIs are certainly interesting. It looks like they may have some vertical dispersion issues though.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/jbl-hdi-3600-speaker-review.13027/


I'm increasingly finding myself wondering how I could integrate Neumanns into my room, aesthetically speaking. They're too ugly for a family sitting room. Their performance though, really does look exceptional.

The Neumann 420 is also well above your budget, at nearly 7k£. My recommendations tend to skew towards coaxials (especially 3-way ones that mitigate potential flaws) because I am very sensitive to vertical dispersion error personally. To be clear, I'm not based in the UK, nor am I affiliated to Keith (whose ad for the Gradient demo set was linked). I just found it truly exceptionally smooth on my own listening here in Asia, borne out by the measurements of its first revision, which are excellent even by today's standards, and further improved with driver + crossover advances. The KEF is good, but running midbass through two massive 12-inch woofers a side... it's quite the experience. The KEF coaxial driver is superior, slightly smoother in the top octave, but the Gradient includes an active crossover and proven nCore amps and substantially more bass radiating surface.

 

[DLxP]

As an aside (and a bit off-topic as they're not floorstanding speakers) I wonder how Neumans/Genelecs/other studio monitor-style speakers perform at living room distances? My listening distance is 10ft away.

 

[Ilkless]

As an aside (and a bit off-topic as they're not floorstanding speakers) I wonder how Neumans/Genelecs/other studio monitor-style speakers perform at living room distances? My listening distance is 10ft away.

There's no reason they wouldn't perform "at living room distances" differently from any other speaker in their size classes. The really well-designed ones like Neumanns are at the state-of-the-art of SPL capability for their form factor. The KH120A, for instance, can output ~100dB in the midbass with a single 5.25-inch driver. 106dB with a pair.

 

[thewas]

Actually they would even perform better than most hifi loudspeakers as they have smoother and higher directivity.

 

[DLxP]

There's no reason they wouldn't perform "at living room distances" differently from any other speaker in their size classes. The really well-designed ones like Neumanns are at the state-of-the-art of SPL capability for their form factor. The KH120A, for instance, can output ~100dB in the midbass with a single 5.25-inch driver. 106dB with a pair.

I asked because Amir lighted on the same point in reviewing the similarly specified Genelec 8341A. That said, I haven't looked too deeply into stand-mounted studio monitors given they don't fit what I'm looking for, so hadn't checked the KH120 SPL, which certainly would be sufficient.

 

[Ilkless]

I asked because Amir lighted on the same point in reviewing the similarly specified Genelec 8341A. That said, I haven't looked too deeply into stand-mounted studio monitors given they don't fit what I'm looking for, so hadn't checked the KH120 SPL, which certainly would be sufficient.

The 8341A is a tiny speaker, with exceptional linearity and smooth dispersion. I think the incredible performance has overshadowed the fact that Genelec achieved it in such a small package, with amplification and room EQ ability.

Unfortunately, because the woofer output is channelled through slots at the top and bottom (crucial to the unrivalled dispersion control for the size) in Genelec's unique design, it does limit max SPL slightly compared to the absolute best possible in that size. The upside is unrivalled dispersion control for the size. Nonetheless, the SPL capability and extension is still good-to-great.

 

[Vintage57]

I'm increasingly finding myself wondering how I could integrate Neumanns into my room, aesthetically speaking. They're too ugly for a family sitting room. Their performance though, really does look exceptional.

I can’t argue they’re aren’t pretty but can they sing.

I picked up a pair of KH120’s to complement the KH805, that I foolishly bought to expand the bass on the 420’s. Based on ATC’s experience. Wrong, redundant, the 420’s doesn’t need any help in my room 2,700 cu ft.

The rest of the story. I’m impressed by Neumann’s ability to put so much punch in a small box. The two speakers, the 120 and the 420, share the same tweeter and essentially the KH805 has a similar driver to the KH420 so the midranges are the variable.

Value wise, the KH120’s with the KH805 are the show stoppers for less than $3,000. At full retail.

The KH805, has been discontinued, however there are some available if one searches. The KH810 with 7.1 channels, has the same driver and power but overkill for stereo.