Best DAC for Shure KSE1200?

[holicst]

I just hope it arrives when I'll have the Luna for review. 3-4 weeks delivery (free). Funny that I thought I'd always have issues with Hungarian customs as the limit is 40 Euros, and now I've ordered audio gear below that

 

[astraone]

the kse1200 technically is around 6 years old soon. wondering if i buy one now will it get obsolete soon?

 

[brandall10]

the kse1200 technically is around 6 years old soon. wondering if i buy one now will it get obsolete soon?

The KSE1200 isn't quite 2 years old, though it is basically the KSE1500 without the DAC portion. As far as the KSE1500 is concerned, I could see an update there because the DAC portion is underwhelming... in a way the 1200 was the answer to that, but they continue to sell the 1500, so who knows.

 

[astraone]

The KSE1200 isn't quite 2 years old, though it is basically the KSE1500 without the DAC portion. As far as the KSE1500 is concerned, I could see an update there because the DAC portion is underwhelming... in a way the 1200 was the answer to that, but they continue to sell the 1500, so who knows.

I'm so close to buying it after listening to the demo unit. But just got this feeling a new upgraded model with USB C and improved driver will be launched shortly after I buy it. Amazing iem! The clarity is just 2nd to none.

 

[brandall10]

I'm doubtful that would happen anytime soon, at least within the next year or so, simply because I believe the 1200 was the update in a way. The upper mids/lower treble is somewhat wonky per FR, so there is a chance they may revise the earphone portion itself.

 

[astraone]

I'm doubtful that would happen anytime soon, at least within the next year or so, simply because I believe the 1200 was the update in a way. The upper mids/lower treble is somewhat wonky per FR, so there is a chance they may revise the earphone portion itself.

Thank you, would you be able to share more or elaborate on the wonky mids/treble Freq on the kse1200?

 

[brandall10]

Thank you, would you be able to share more or elaborate on the wonky mids/treble Freq on the kse1200?

I'd prefer not to post any particular FR as they vary based on means of measurement, but if you google KSE1200/1500 you'll see a variety of measurements to get a general idea. I've had one of these for about 15 months or so and I don't hear the suckout/spike as being anything particularly objectionable, but part of that could be due to the sheer resolving power.

I have also tried a variety of posted Oratory EQ corrections and they don't sound quite right either, I tend to prefer the default sound, so go figure.

 

[JustAnandaDourEyedDude]

I'm so close to buying it after listening to the demo unit. But just got this feeling a new upgraded model with USB C and improved driver will be launched shortly after I buy it. Amazing iem! The clarity is just 2nd to none.

I agree with @brandall10 that the KSE1200 is unlikely to be updated anytime soon. The USB charging cable is detachable, and you can easily replace it with a USB C to micro-USB charging cable if you prefer, so that would not be a reason for an update. The KSE1500/1200 is a marvelous technological achievement by Shure, when you think of the miniaturizing of an entire estat system for portability as an IEM system and delivering top-tier sound quality with satisfying bass. Other than the Stax portable IEM system, for which I have not read any high praise, the KSE are the only full range single estat driver IEM system that I know of. Given that so far the KSE have no real competition within the single estat driver IEM category, and given the high cost that Shure reportedly sunk into the development, my guess is that it is quite unlikely that Shure themselves would render the current KSE 1200 model obsolete with any updated model.

Considering broader competition across all IEM categories, I also disbelieve that the KSE 1200 would become obsolete in the near future or maybe even longer-term future, in terms of the stellar sound that it produces. I imagine that its excellent sound means that its estat driver is a low-distortion one. The detail retrieval or resolution and instrument separation capability of the KSE 1200 is top-notch and on par with that of the Final A8000, while the tonalities of the two differ slightly. Given the variances in people's HRTF and hearing, and that a little software EQ of music could possibly give you a tonality best suited to your hearing without degrading the resolution, I do not expect that any of, say the IEMs in the top tiers on Crinacle's IEM Ranking List, would become obsolete in terms of performance.

I have owned the KSE 1200 and final A8000 for about a year, and I have done multiple careful (but still crude) back-to-back subjective listening comparisons of these two with several IEMs and headphones in my little collection (though I do not have any of the current top-tier headphones). I test at a moderate overall volume level at which I would be comfortable listening to music for hours, and I do not wish to raise the volume significantly in order to hear subtle accompaniment and fine textural details. These two IEMs make me perceive every other IEM/HP that I have tested them against as sounding slightly blurry, and tentative and indistinct in the details, texture and separation, even in cases where I may slightly prefer the tonality of say the final B3 or Focal Elex. Even though we are well into the region of diminishing returns on money invested, that superior resolution is intoxicating, and it makes me prefer listening to music through either of those two IEMs than through anything else I own.

As an aside, I realize that "resolution" and "instrument separation" are ill-defined subjective terms, and their relationship to measurable quantities like FR and distortion remains unclear to me. I am using those terms here to mean that better resolution and separation both brings more seeming realism to instruments and voices, as well as enables my brain to more readily pick up simultaneous subtle and gross details (i.e., dynamic range) of the music arrangement and integrate these to experience the impact of the full complexity of the music.

Where I speculate that the current top-tier IEMs and HPs, including the KSE 1200, might become obsolete is in the aspect of price. With increasing competition and experimentation and learning and technology refinement by the engineering teams of many companies, IEM and HP models may be released within a year or two, that achieve performance comparable to that of the current top-performing IEMs/HPs, but with prices in the $500 to $800 range instead of multiple thousands. One can hope for palatable prices for top-tier performance without having to agonize over stepping far into diminishing returns territory.

 

[astraone]

I agree with @brandall10 that the KSE1200 is unlikely to be updated anytime soon. The USB charging cable is detachable, and you can easily replace it with a USB C to micro-USB charging cable if you prefer, so that would not be a reason for an update. The KSE1500/1200 is a marvelous technological achievement by Shure, when you think of the miniaturizing of an entire estat system for portability as an IEM system and delivering top-tier sound quality with satisfying bass. Other than the Stax portable IEM system, for which I have not read any high praise, the KSE are the only full range single estat driver IEM system that I know of. Given that so far the KSE have no real competition within the single estat driver IEM category, and given the high cost that Shure reportedly sunk into the development, my guess is that it is quite unlikely that Shure themselves would render the current KSE 1200 model obsolete with any updated model.

Considering broader competition across all IEM categories, I also disbelieve that the KSE 1200 would become obsolete in the near future or maybe even longer-term future, in terms of the stellar sound that it produces. I imagine that its excellent sound means that its estat driver is a low-distortion one. The detail retrieval or resolution and instrument separation capability of the KSE 1200 is top-notch and on par with that of the Final A8000, while the tonalities of the two differ slightly. Given the variances in people's HRTF and hearing, and that a little software EQ of music could possibly give you a tonality best suited to your hearing without degrading the resolution, I do not expect that any of, say the IEMs in the top tiers on Crinacle's IEM Ranking List, would become obsolete in terms of performance.

I have owned the KSE 1200 and final A8000 for about a year, and I have done multiple careful (but still crude) back-to-back subjective listening comparisons of these two with several IEMs and headphones in my little collection (though I do not have any of the current top-tier headphones). I test at a moderate overall volume level at which I would be comfortable listening to music for hours, and I do not wish to raise the volume significantly in order to hear subtle accompaniment and fine textural details. These two IEMs make me perceive every other IEM/HP that I have tested them against as sounding slightly blurry, and tentative and indistinct in the details, texture and separation, even in cases where I may slightly prefer the tonality of say the final B3 or Focal Elex. Even though we are well into the region of diminishing returns on money invested, that superior resolution is intoxicating, and it makes me prefer listening to music through either of those two IEMs than through anything else I own.

As an aside, I realize that "resolution" and "instrument separation" are ill-defined subjective terms, and their relationship to measurable quantities like FR and distortion remains unclear to me. I am using those terms here to mean that better resolution and separation both brings more seeming realism to instruments and voices, as well as enables my brain to more readily pick up simultaneous subtle and gross details (i.e., dynamic range) of the music arrangement and integrate these to experience the impact of the full complexity of the music.

Where I speculate that the current top-tier IEMs and HPs, including the KSE 1200, might become obsolete is in the aspect of price. With increasing competition and experimentation and learning and technology refinement by the engineering teams of many companies, IEM and HP models may be released within a year or two, that achieve performance comparable to that of the current top-performing IEMs/HPs, but with prices in the $500 to $800 range instead of multiple thousands. One can hope for palatable prices for top-tier performance without having to agonize over stepping far into diminishing returns territory.

Thanks so much for the detailed info. Can I know more about the bass quality and quantity between kse1200 and A8000?
I demo-ed a number of top tier iems except for A8000, the kse1200 is truly unforgettable and I'm struggling not to buy it .

 

[astraone]

Also would like to ask what's the difference between the estat in kse1200 so different from those in eg. Empire Odin and UM Mest?

 

[JustAnandaDourEyedDude]

Thanks so much for the detailed info. Can I know more about the bass quality and quantity between kse1200 and A8000?
I demo-ed a number of top tier iems except for A8000, the kse1200 is truly unforgettable and I'm struggling not to buy it .

Please bear in mind that everything I say here is subjective listening impressions with very crude volume matching, and so are prone to error and imagined differences. You ask a question that is hard to answer. I do not listen to much music with a lot of bass in it, and what there is of it does not go particularly low. I listened again tonight to a few pieces through both the KSE1200 and the A8000 before typing this reply. You've already auditioned the KSE1200, so you must know what the bass is like. The bass on both of them is far more similar than different. The quantity on both of them sound rather neutral to me. If there is plentiful bass in the recording, they will both reproduce it effortlessly. If there is less bass than one might want in the recording, they will not add any, and people who thrive on loud bass will be disappointed.

One of the tracks I tested with tonight is "My Funny Valentine" performed by Alice Fredenham on her "Under The Covers" CD, to give you an idea. An attractive lower-pitched voice, and she and the producers used lower-pitched bass than usual to set off her voice. Both of these IEMs make the bass accompaniment sound majestic and full, and their reproduction of the bass quantity is pretty much the same. The quality of the bass notes is high and pretty much identical with both IEMs, but these are easier, slow sustained notes to play. I also tested with some other tracks, including "You And The Night And The Music" performed by Hilary Kole on her "Moments Like This" CD (Japanese CD pressing, I do not know which masters are on the streaming services). There is some agile bass (I don't know what the instrument is) that is higher-pitched than the previous track I mentioned, and I listen from 3:18 to 3:57 where I actually crank up the volume quite a bit to test. The two IEMs capture every nuance with high quality, so you can feel the nimbleness of the musician and the propulsiveness of the music. Here, you can feel that on a few extended notes, the A8000 has some lower pitched content than the KSE1200, and with a tad bit of grain to it, though the difference between the two is small. They both sound very satisfying, and of course just as with all the rest of the tracks I have no reference as to what is truer to the recording.

The two IEMs differ slightly also, and maybe more so, in the mids and the treble. When you listen to the same voice with the two IEMs back to back, the difference in tonality is apparent. I have a slight preference for the KSE1200 here. The KSE1200 has a lowered response in the clarity region 2-5kHz, while the A8000 is heightened to even above the Harman plateau there, and I already find the latter a bit much for me. So the A8000 sounds a tad brighter, the voices drier and verging on sibilance on some recordings, while with the the KSE1200 voices sound a tad moister and have a seemingly more normal tinge of nasal sound. I can listen to the KSE1200 for as long as I want, while the A8000 will tire my ears after a few hours. This is also due to the treble response, I think. The A8000 seems to have a bigger and more extended treble response, making it sound a little brighter. This shows up most in well-recorded piano. I tested tonight using tracks I am familiar with - Bourree and Gigue of JSBach's English Suite performed by Elisabeth Nielsen on her "Bach Schumann Prokofiev" CD. The KSE1200 sounds excellent with this music with slightly richer tones, but the A8000 edges it out here for me, bringing a slightly clattering hard-edged sound to the piano notes that has my brain dancing along, thanks to its treble response I think. They both bring out equally well the rich tonality of piano notes with more dwell and not such a staccato attack.

The differences I mention above are slight, and the overwhelming appeal of both IEMs is their resolution, though they would measure as perhaps only slightly better than IEMs costing $150. While the tonality of the two is slightly different, each is highly persuasive that it is portraying the reality of the recording. I have never auditioned any IEMs or headphones or speakers before buying them. I read several subjective reviews and online discussions and looked at FR plots about KSE1200 before buying it more than a year ago. Soon after that, I read a sentence about the release of the A8000, then read Final's product page about it, and bought it without further ado and without having read any review about it. I have no regrets about either purchase, even though prior to 2017 I would never have dreamt of spending more than $150 on an IEM. I have periodically thought during the past year that I should pick one or the other after listening some more, and try to sell off the other, but have been unable to bring myself to part with either one. Neither IEM is perfect, and neither one lands in Crinacle's S tiers. I encourage you to disregard my words about the two IEMs above, since what is agreeable to my ears may not be so to yours, and try to audition the A8000 for yourself. If you are on the US East Coast, Audio46 (from where I bought the A8000) is in New York and has a demo model, I believe. You should also look at their FR plots and those of IEMs you own, and try to interpret the differences based on your listening experience with the IEMs you own or have demoed. In practice, I find the A8000 a little more practical for using when I am out shopping, even though Shure has done a great job making the KSE1200 portable and even provides a couple of study durable rubberbands to attach the amp to your phone. Both are great when listening at home where the environment is quieter and you can actually hear the fine details. The KSE1200 can go to fairly loud levels to the point of the music becoming uncomfortable to listen to. There is some headroom left before its energizer (amp) displays its input voltage warning that it is close to clipping (the second little LED would turn from green to red), but I have never taken it there. The KSE1200 may not satisfy folks who listen at headbanging levels. The A8000 I believe can get to headbanging levels, but I have never taken it there either. I never listen at even uncomfortably loud levels, let alone headbanging levels. I do not enjoy music at those levels, I want to protect what's left of my hearing, and I also want to minimize wear and tear on the delicate diaphragms and suspensions in the IEMs as I hope to use these for many years to come.

Also would like to ask what's the difference between the estat in kse1200 so different from those in eg. Empire Odin and UM Mest?

I have a possibly irrational preference for single-driver IEMs. The estat driver in KSE1200 is full-range and demolishes all complaints about lack of bass response in estat drivers. In the hybrids that use the EST drivers, each driver handles only part of the frequency range, the EST being used usually for the treble and occasionally for the mids. I bought one of the early hybrids in the new wave of IEMs incorporating EST drivers, a $150 model from AliExpress. I listened to it only on two separate days and never after that; it was way too harsh-sounding for my ears. I have never looked into Empire Odin, and from what I recall UM Mest is a hybrid that includes EST and bone conduction, which sounds interesting. I had looked at product info for some other hybrid drivers with the miniature EST drivers (and even piezoelectric drivers), including the ones from Fearless, but did not feel inclined to dig any further, though one or more of them may sound great. So I cannot answer your question other than to say I prefer full-range single-driver IEMs. My listening experience with IEMs and headphones is very limited, and I do not have the time and money to keep trying other IEMs, knowing that there is no such thing as perfection. You having auditioned most of the top-tier IEMs, have a much wider experience than I do, and I would be happy to learn of your thoughts if you buy a top-tier IEM and listen to it at length.

 

[astraone]

W

Please bear in mind that everything I say here is subjective listening impressions with very crude volume matching, and so are prone to error and imagined differences. You ask a question that is hard to answer. I do not listen to much music with a lot of bass in it, and what there is of it does not go particularly low. I listened again tonight to a few pieces through both the KSE1200 and the A8000 before typing this reply. You've already auditioned the KSE1200, so you must know what the bass is like. The bass on both of them is far more similar than different. The quantity on both of them sound rather neutral to me. If there is plentiful bass in the recording, they will both reproduce it effortlessly. If there is less bass than one might want in the recording, they will not add any, and people who thrive on loud bass will be disappointed.

One of the tracks I tested with tonight is "My Funny Valentine" performed by Alice Fredenham on her "Under The Covers" CD, to give you an idea. An attractive lower-pitched voice, and she and the producers used lower-pitched bass than usual to set off her voice. Both of these IEMs make the bass accompaniment sound majestic and full, and their reproduction of the bass quantity is pretty much the same. The quality of the bass notes is high and pretty much identical with both IEMs, but these are easier, slow sustained notes to play. I also tested with some other tracks, including "You And The Night And The Music" performed by Hilary Kole on her "Moments Like This" CD (Japanese CD pressing, I do not know which masters are on the streaming services). There is some agile bass (I don't know what the instrument is) that is higher-pitched than the previous track, and I listen from 3:18 to 3:57 where I actually crank up the volume a lot to test. The two IEMs capture every nuance with high quality, so you can feel the nimbleness of the musician and the propulsiveness of the music. Here, you can feel that on a few extended notes, the A8000 has some lower pitched content than the KSE1200, and with a tad bit of grain to it, though the difference between the two is small. They both sound very satisfying, and of course just as with all the rest of the tracks I have no reference as to what is truer to the recording.

The two IEMs differ slightly also, and maybe more, in the mids and the treble. When you listen to the same voice with the two IEMs back to back, the difference in tonality is apparent. I have a slight preference for the KSE1200 here. The KSE1200 has a lowered response in the clarity region 2-5kHz, while the A8000 is heightened to even above the Harman plateau there, and I already find the latter a bit much for me. So the A8000 sounds a tad brighter, the voices drier and verging on sibilance on some recordings, while with the the KSE1200 voices sound a tad moister and have a seemingly more normal tinge of nasal sound. I can listen to the KSE1200 for as long as I want, while the A8000 will tire my ears after a few hours. This is also due to the treble response, I think. The A8000 seems to have a bigger and more extended treble response, making it sound a little brighter. This shows up most in well-recorded piano. I tested tonight using tracks I am familiar with - Bourree and Gigue of JSBach's English Suite performed by Elisabeth Nielsen on her "Bach Schumann Prokofiev" CD. The KSE1200 sounds excellent with this music with slightly richer tones, but the A8000 edges it out here for me, bringing a slight clattering hard-edged sound to the piano notes that has my brain dancing along, thanks to its treble response I think.

The differences I mention above are slight, and the overwhelming appeal of both IEMs is their resolution, though they would measure as perhaps only slightly better than IEMs costing $150. I have never auditioned any IEMs or headphones or speakers. I read several subjective reviews and online discussions and looking at FR plots about KSE1200 before buying it more than a year ago. Soon after that I read a sentence about the release of the A8000, then read Final's product page about it, and bought it without further ado. I have no regrets about either purchase, even though prior to 2017 I would never have dreamt of spending more than $150 on an IEM. I have periodically thought during the past year that I should pick one or the other after listening some more, and try to sell off the other, but have been unable to bring myself to part with either one. Neither IEM is perfect, and neither one lands in Crinacle's S tiers. I encourage you to disregard my words about the two IEMs above, and try to audition the A8000 for yourself. If you are on the US East Coast, Audio46 (from where I bought the A8000) is in New York and has a demo model, I believe. You should also look at their FR plots and those of IEMs you own, and try to interpret the differences. In practice, I find the A8000 a little more practical for using when I am out shopping, even though Shure has done a great job making the KSE1200 portable and even provides a couple of study durable rubberbands to attach the amp to your phone. Both are great when listening at home where the environment is quieter and you can actually hear the fine details.


I have a possibly irrational preference for single-driver IEMs. The estat driver in KSE1200 is full-range and demolishes all complaints about lack of bass response in estat drivers. I bought one of the early hybrids in the new wave of IEMs incorporating EST drivers, a $150 model from AliExpress. I listened to it only on two separate days and never after that; it was way too harsh-sounding for my ears. I have never looked into Empire Odin, and from what I recall UM Mest is a hybrid that includes EST and bone conduction, which sounds interesting. I had looked at product info for some other hybrid drivers with the miniature EST drivers and even piezoelectric drivers, including the ones from Fearless, but did not feel inclined to dig any further, though one or more of them may sound great. So I cannot answer your question other than to say I prefer full-range single-driver IEMs. My listening experience with IEMs and headphones is very limited

Wow! Thank you and I'm so grateful for your time spent on this very insightful and detailed impressions and thoughts on both the iems.

 

[brandall10]

Forgot to add that I've been using a Tempotec Sonata HD with my KSE1200 for nearly a year now and it's crystal clear and the size and cost is certainly right. Was using a Mojo before that and IMO the sound improvement was palpable.

FWIW, I have shifted to spending most of my time listening to IER-Z1R simply because of the Harman-like tuning and the largeness of the soundstage. They lack the incisiveness and detail of the KSE1200s which is intoxicating (like listening to your music through a very clear window), but I find I like the more speaker-like presentation for long listening sessions, while the technicalities are still very good. Also unfortunately I've brought my Mojo back into the mix as they seem somewhat mushy without a ton of power.

 

[astraone]

Forgot to add that I've been using a Tempotec Sonata HD with my KSE1200 for nearly a year now and it's crystal clear and the size and cost is certainly right. Was using a Mojo before that and IMO the sound improvement was palpable.

FWIW, I have shifted to spending most of my time listening to IER-Z1R simply because of the Harman-like tuning and the largeness of the soundstage. They lack the incisiveness and detail of the KSE1200s which is intoxicating (like listening to your music through a very clear window), but I find I like the more speaker-like presentation for long listening sessions, while the technicalities are still very good. Also unfortunately I've brought my Mojo back into the mix as they seem somewhat mushy without a ton of power.

Not sure if this make sense, is the kse1200 friendly to equaliser? Example if I feel like bass head today, can I equalise it into a bassy headphone while keeping the excellent details?

 

[astraone]

Finally bought it and I believe it's the clearest iems I've heard. Can I ask if we can purchase a case for the amp?

 

[brandall10]

Not sure if this make sense, is the kse1200 friendly to equaliser? Example if I feel like bass head today, can I equalise it into a bassy headphone while keeping the excellent details?

Sorry, lost track of this thread. Congrats on getting a pair. I actually have found an EQ profile I like, using Harman for < 1k and Oratory above. It's maybe 80% of the way there. I probably split my time equally between these and the IER-Z1Rs now.

 

[dawnrazor]

I also own a KSE1200 and - in my opinion - it is a very resolving earphone.
For a while I had 3 dacs: Topping D50, D70 and Khadas TB and it was very easy to hear the differences between them.

I disagree with the idea that buying any "good measuring" dac will be enough.
These elecrostats deserve a good source (+ interconnect...).

A word of warning... You will need a source with volume control for KSE1200.
The 2V supplied by RCA's is often too "hot" for the energizer and there is audible distortion.
I usually use -3db attenuation for PCM material, DSDs have lower volume and it is not needed.

Weird.

I have a dac with a vc and with it maxed its 2.7V RMS (7.68 Volts peak-to-peak). I can peg it at max and yes the light comes on on the KSE1200, but then I just switch the 10db pad switch and the light goes out and no issues. So 2v shouldnt be an issue. I just got my KSE1200 so maybe it has the pad options and older ones don't?

 

[dawnrazor]

best will depend, but the Border Patrol SE dac is a great match. Yes I know...

 

[LGNYS]

I've found thy kse1200 amp to be fairly sensitive to impedance matches, where using DAPs. Both A&K DAPs I have tried (AK250 and Ultima SP1000) match beautifully, while the one Sony player I tried (NW-WM1A) ended up sounding very noisy, so was completely unusable as Source/DAC with the kse1200.