best configuration for a speaker setup

[audiomig]

Hi!
I would like to hear about what experienced listeners would consider to be the best configuration for a stereo speaker setup to be used for listening in an average sized room, say between 30m2 and 50m2.

3 options come to mind:

- Small two way monitors with two subwoofers
EX: ATC SCM20A/Eve SC205/Focal Shape 65/Dynaudio Core 7, Geithain RL906, ... all supported by an high quality pair of sealed subs like the Dynaudio Sub Core or Geithain Basis 11/13K crossed at around 80/100hz

- Main monitors, no sub
EX: ATC SCM150ASL, Eve SC3012, Geithain RL901, Genelec 1238A

- Three way monitors plus a single bass supporting subwoofer
EX.: Dynaudio Core 59, Focal Trio11, Eve SC3010, Newmann 420... plus a single subwoofer like the Geithain Basis 13K or Dynaudio Core filling the bass below 50hz

All driven by adequate ancillaries, namely regarding the proper management of the integration between subwoofers and speakers, say for example, using a miniDSP SHM.

What are your thoughts regarding the different configurations, what is your preferred choice, what alternatives , please give your feedback.
Looking forward to hear about your experiences.
Rgs

 

[q3cpma]

1) Listening distance and volume?
2) Last setup with optionally a second sub in the future is the best; KH420A, 8361A/8351B or ME Geithain RL901K would be good candidates for this. Why? Because 2-way speakers, like passive crossovers, are a compromise that can only be worked around partially and at a great expense.

 

[audiomig]

Thank you for your reply.
3m ceiling, so the volume would be between 90m3 and 120m3.
Listening distance 2,5/3m

 

[audiomig]

Do you have an opinion regarding the Focal Trio11 or Dynaudio Core 59, they seem good value when compared to the Neumann for instance...?

 

[q3cpma]

Do you have an opinion regarding the Focal Trio11 or Dynaudio Core 59, they seem good value when compared to the Neumann for instance...?

I meant audio volume. About these monitors:
* Focal Trio11 Be measurements here: https://www.soundandrecording.de/equipment/focal-trio11-be-−-midfield-monitor-im-test/. Not horrible, but clearly not as good as Neumann or Genelec (not-very-flat on-axis, uneven off-axis and 5 kHz distorsion peak).
* No measurements to be found for the Dynaudio Core 59, which makes them way less attractive than the honest brands. Like Focal, misguided unuse of real waveguides that Dynaudio can at least work around with a DSP based crossover.

Really no reason to consider other models than what I mentioned, except maybe D&D or Kii, but subwoofer integration will be painful compared to Genelec SAM stuff.

 

[Bugal1998]

This is all in my subjective experience.

Without referencing specific gear, I have become a believer in the cohesive sound delivered from competent full range-- or nearly full range-- speakers. I used to believe the argument about the need for optimal placement of the bass units in the room as a compelling case for satellite/sub combos. Despite the potential frequency response compromises, I now feel a quality full range speaker cannot be beat for overall quality... And you can always add a sub for bass reinforcement if needed (maybe crossover as low as feasible?).

I also find myself missing the low frequencies if the system can't play with authority down to at least the high 20hz range.

I spent hours optimizing location, phase, distance, time, frequency response, crossovers, etc. for my subs to integrate with bookshelf speakers; the frequency response measurements looked wonderful, and I thought it sounded good... Until I heard full range speakers.

YMMV

 

[andreasmaaan]

I agree with @q3cpma that option three is probably the best, although option one is likely to be significantly cheaper and, all else equal, will not be a significant compromise unless it's important that you listen loud.

I disagree with @q3cpma that subwoofer integration will be "painful" with anything other than Genelecs

 

[audiomig]

I mostly listen relatively low as I work, but when the moment or the material is right the volume goes up... but I really don't know up to what level... 100db maybe... maybe less... will try to measure to get an idea.

Dynaudio Core 59 is a good candidate for the reviewers here to check them out and do some measurements, I believe there is more people curious about them.

The Genelecs seem to be amazing speakers.
I have a miniDSP SHM, that I would use to match the subs with the monitors.

What are your opinions on the Geithains?

Some people seem to get very engaged when listening to ATCs, is there any special reason for that?
Some other speakers on the other hand seem to do everything well but some people seem to find them to sound boring...?
I mention this because I read that about the Neumanns...
How to frame this engaging vs boring when talking about monitors?
They should only translate, but it seems some end up feeling more "musical", which is a difficult concept to grasp, but at the same time it's possible to feel it with certain equipment...

I remember seeing a review here of some ATCs with, as I remember, some questionable measurements.

 

[Bugal1998]

Some people seem to get very engaged when listening to ATCs, is there any special reason for that?
Some other speakers on the other hand seem to do everything well but some people seem to find them to sound boring...?
I mention this because I read that about the Neumanns...
How to frame this engaging vs boring when talking about monitors?
They should only translate, but it seems some end up feeling more "musical", which is a difficult concept to grasp, but at the same time it's possible to feel it with certain equipment...

Great question... I don't think we know the answer. Spinorama data seems to correlate rather well with tonal balance, but doesn't seem to correlate with what makes a speaker engaging... Whatever that means.

Charles Sprinkle commented that Spinorama addressed the largest and easiest opportunity to improve speaker performance, but it was only the low hanging fruit and by no means a comprehensive means of assessing speaker performance. I think we've observed hints of that with Amir's subjective comments.

I don't have experience with the models you're considering, but I've heard the Kef LS50w and Kef Reference 1 and found them to sound highly refined... and utterly boring. Why? I would love to know.

Until we know which objective measurements correlate to all subjective perceptions, we'll still have to trust our ears to tell us what we enjoy.

 

[andreasmaaan]

Some people seem to get very engaged when listening to ATCs, is there any special reason for that?

I can tell you one person who finds ATCs to be among the least engaging speakers out there...

 

[audiomig]

I also never understood all the noise about the KEFs, they don't do anything for me...
I see you have JBL, I also have a pair of 590 in a home theater setup and I do like their sound, clear, dynamic with good presence.
I would like to try some pro monitors, the choice is wide but they are almost impossible to find in order to hear them side by side, and even more difficult to get to hear them at home...

 

[audiomig]

I can tell you one person who finds ATCs to be among the least engaging speakers out there...

ATC are difficult to have a clear idea about them, I heard them sounding very appealing, mainly the small monitor SCM20A and have heard the big speakers sounding too "shouty" if that makes sense... lacking meat around the bones... It might have been that the big drivers lacked some running in...

 

[andreasmaaan]

ATC are difficult to have a clear idea about them, I heard them sounding very appealing, mainly the small monitor SCM20A and have heard the big speakers sounding too "shouty" if that makes sense... lacking meat around the bones... It might have been that the big drivers lacked some running in...

The ATCs I've heard were neither appealing nor shouty. Just very boring and flat-sounding (not as in flat-measuring, but flat as in lacking appeal). Those were were the SCM300ASL.

 

[Bugal1998]

I also never understood all the noise about the KEFs, they don't do anything for me...
I see you have JBL, I also have a pair of 590 in a home theater setup and I do like their sound, clear, dynamic with good presence.
I would like to try some pro monitors, the choice is wide but they are almost impossible to find in order to hear them side by side, and even more difficult to get to hear them at home...

My sig looks like I'm a JBL fanatic, but I'm not (I swear!). I bought the 305p Mkii/ LSR 310s years ago because they were cheap (on sale), well reviewed, and available to audition at a local music store. A bit of DIRAC EQ and and it’s a delightful little system.

I bought used JBL M2s sight-unseen (and unheard) for my main 2-channel system and they came with a single 708p (prior owner used it as a center channel). Since I already had one, I was curious how the 708p sounded in a system so I bought a second b-stock 708p. The 708’s have impressive bass response for their size, but lacked bottom end relative to the M2 and 305s with a sub, so I bought two JBL 550p subs for $199 each. I was really tempted by an SVS or Rythmic sub, but the JBL was by far the cheapest sub that I thought might have reasonable quality. And presto, I had three different sets of JBL speakers.

I also look a little like an NAD fan, but I’m actually a DIRAC fan.

 

[HooStat]

The biggest cost driver in speakers is bass response. That is, as speakers get more expensive the biggest difference is usually in bass response (there are other things that improve too). I am becoming a fan of figuring out what subwoofer configuration you can support, and then picking the best speakers that work with that. You may have 100% flexibility on your choices, or you may have to incorporate the room design wishes of another person. But, if size/color/location of subs are important, figure out how you want to handle bass, and then find the right speakers.

 

[Hipper]

As has been pointed out, there are a lot of variables when trying to work out what speaker set up you would find best.

Firstly my experience is limited to my 3.86m x 4.2m x 2.4m high room (16m2, 39m3). I use three way speakers with no subs, set up using 'The Thirds' (speakers and chair a third way into the room off each wall, listening distance about 1.5m). I also use lots of room treatment which absorbs a lot of the sound energy, mostly bass in the corners wall reflections. I also use an equaliser so if the balance is not right I can add or take away as appropriate, like tone controls. I've not tried subs. My speakers seem to go down to the high 20s Hz. I'm happy with the sound.

The key issue is getting the bass right. Bass will be a product of your speakers and room. Bass at your listening position will be affected by placement of your speakers and chair in your room. One advantage of using subs, especially multiple subs, seems to be the ability to place them anywhere in the room for best bass response whilst keeping the mid and high drivers, producing the frequencies that mostly reflect, in a symmetrical position.

If deciding on three way speakers, it is particularly important not to be too close to them as they need some space to integrate all the drivers. Ask the speaker manufacturer what that integration distance is.