Hi all! In my discussions with other enthusiasts they have all recommended getting a music streamer that is a cut above the nicer lower priced units. They all seem to value having the ability to store music on board, be able to cache files for smoothness, have good internal clocking, use the best SPDIF and USB outputs etc. Outside of the Aurender and other products that can start at around $7K are there any products that you can recommend that have these features? I've looked at the Eversolo, Cambridge Wiim Pro Plus and some others, but I don't seem to see them mentioning any of these features. Having a quality DAC onboard would be fine, but the ability to send a very clean datastream to an external DAC would be even better IMO.
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Best Caching Music streamer with onboard storage without all the pre-pro features (DAC or no DAC)
- Thread starter Fritzjr
- Start date
You can put 4Tb on this baby and all the bells & whistles one could hope for including DSP
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Eversolo DMP-A8 Balanced Streamer/DAC Review
This is a review and detailed measurements of the Eversolo DMP-A8 balanced DAC, Streamer, HDMI ARC, and Analog/digital Preamplifier with DSP support. It was sent to me by the company and costs US $1,980. The DMP-A8 is stylish and functional in every sense of the words. Running Android with a...
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I will let others weigh in on relative merits of different streamers, but I will comment about "caching" -
internet streams are inherently susceptible to interruptions, so virtually all streamers incorporate a certain level of buffer, AKA pre-cache, to avoid audio stutters.
There are certain streaming software applications which allow user-control over buffer size, but I don't believe commercial streamers give the user any control over the buffer - this is a fixed system configuration.
Ignoring a streamer's internal DAC, I believe best sound quality is achieved if the streamer allows bit-perfect processing of the audio stream, and I understand that all major streamers can be configured this way.
internet streams are inherently susceptible to interruptions, so virtually all streamers incorporate a certain level of buffer, AKA pre-cache, to avoid audio stutters.
There are certain streaming software applications which allow user-control over buffer size, but I don't believe commercial streamers give the user any control over the buffer - this is a fixed system configuration.
Ignoring a streamer's internal DAC, I believe best sound quality is achieved if the streamer allows bit-perfect processing of the audio stream, and I understand that all major streamers can be configured this way.
This is valuable/useful in my opinion only if that onboard storage is accessible as a network share. Yes, the Eversolo DMP-A8 meets this criteria. The WiiMs do not.
Though for system flexibility some users prefer to keep their music library stored on a separate NAS - were you not considering a Synology NAS earlier?
This means you can change streamer in the future without needing to transfer your entire collection of music files.
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When you are using it as digital transport to another DAC you won't find an audible difference from the cheapest WiiM to the most expensive streamer.
If you use it's DAC the quality of the chip, it's implementation, quality of the analog output stage and options like XLR and RCA matter. Here you can look at reviews on this site.
You can spend massive amounts on streamers and get a lot of hokus pokus technical details and even snakeoil. You also get nice displays, a lot of input/output options, quality connectors, a good UI etc. - so buying a higher class streamer is not all nonsense and a little WiiM is not all everyone needs.
In my opinion it's very hard to beat a WiiM Ultra. Audio output, DAC, options and software. XLR would be nice. And after that it's about display size, more options, UI, different software (WiiM has excellent software). So if you like an Eversolo or Hifi Rose better for various details that can make sense. But if it's only about sound quality I don't think the extra money is worth it. I wouldn't say there is nothing there, but it's so very slim.. and when you say $7k really that is speaker budget, there is the real difference in sound.
All streamers cache data in buffers - it's a non-issue. In fact, anything that works on a network will have some level of caching.
I've had mine (Cambridge Evo) running for 5 years on my WiFi network using DLNA and it has never dropped a frame with up to 24/192 FLACs (at least not that I have detected).
Adding storage to streamer is a different thing. Most can use USB-connected memory sticks, and/or SSDs and HDDs. The latter, if 3.5" drives, usually in a dock, will need an external PSU. All these work fine on my streamer, but not with large collections of files. This is because my streamer (and I assume many others) don't have enough CPU power to give the user a smooth experience when traversing lots of folders and parsing thousands of files, nor (usually) enough built-in memory to build libraries or databases from the added disk. The files are parsed to pull out tags and cover art to present nicely to the user - you don't usually expect to see text descriptions of files and folders. Streamers vary, but local storage is not great for large music collections. Large collections are better when using DLNA, because the server pre-parses all the files and stores all the info in a database - the server can then make a lookup in the database to get art & tags which is fast.
Some units allow you to put the storage inside the unit, usually SSDs boards.
Anyone who hasn't tried a streamer, low price or fancy, with or without DAC, ought to use one if you have large collection of music files, but shouldn't invent problems that don't exist with them! You can argue specs, but in the end, with any streamer, the three main things are: 1) how good is the software app that controls it? 2) does it have cover for all the services I want to access especially the 'connect' versions of those services and 3) how long will the manufacturer support the code base?
I've had mine (Cambridge Evo) running for 5 years on my WiFi network using DLNA and it has never dropped a frame with up to 24/192 FLACs (at least not that I have detected).
Adding storage to streamer is a different thing. Most can use USB-connected memory sticks, and/or SSDs and HDDs. The latter, if 3.5" drives, usually in a dock, will need an external PSU. All these work fine on my streamer, but not with large collections of files. This is because my streamer (and I assume many others) don't have enough CPU power to give the user a smooth experience when traversing lots of folders and parsing thousands of files, nor (usually) enough built-in memory to build libraries or databases from the added disk. The files are parsed to pull out tags and cover art to present nicely to the user - you don't usually expect to see text descriptions of files and folders. Streamers vary, but local storage is not great for large music collections. Large collections are better when using DLNA, because the server pre-parses all the files and stores all the info in a database - the server can then make a lookup in the database to get art & tags which is fast.
Some units allow you to put the storage inside the unit, usually SSDs boards.
Anyone who hasn't tried a streamer, low price or fancy, with or without DAC, ought to use one if you have large collection of music files, but shouldn't invent problems that don't exist with them! You can argue specs, but in the end, with any streamer, the three main things are: 1) how good is the software app that controls it? 2) does it have cover for all the services I want to access especially the 'connect' versions of those services and 3) how long will the manufacturer support the code base?
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Some streamers feature SSD or NVME slots. Whereas local storage with a WiiM would mean using the USB port.
I can imagine having an NVME in the streamer and that space accessible (well made with samba) on the network as very convenient to some. Space for drives is courtesy of the larger case. But it's not a feature that defines anything to be better. It's just an option. Personally I would have that rather on the network. For reasons of backup, access from other devices with credentials, etc.
There are hilarious stories out there about how internal NVME sound better. And special models even more. Pre-iced drives even more on top. That's all nonsense. And not a smart argument from a person why he massively overspent on an expensive streamer.
As for large collections: a lot of software has no problems with it nowadays. I heard the internal library builder in the WiiM software has limits below what I'd require. But I never activated it. Nor know if it is still the case, that's just my info from last year. With a really large collection it is always good to plan ahead about where to store it and how to access it.
I can imagine having an NVME in the streamer and that space accessible (well made with samba) on the network as very convenient to some. Space for drives is courtesy of the larger case. But it's not a feature that defines anything to be better. It's just an option. Personally I would have that rather on the network. For reasons of backup, access from other devices with credentials, etc.
There are hilarious stories out there about how internal NVME sound better. And special models even more. Pre-iced drives even more on top. That's all nonsense. And not a smart argument from a person why he massively overspent on an expensive streamer.
As for large collections: a lot of software has no problems with it nowadays. I heard the internal library builder in the WiiM software has limits below what I'd require. But I never activated it. Nor know if it is still the case, that's just my info from last year. With a really large collection it is always good to plan ahead about where to store it and how to access it.
IMO having a storage locally (SATA, USB-storage) does not preclude keeping a database of the files for fast searching and serving. It's all about the streamer software - e.g. the widely used mpd (e.g. in moode or volumio) keeps a database of the tracks index.
Super-fast local storage will take out the bottleneck that network to storage can possibly present. But it's only relevant when the storage is REALLY slow. Like a low-tier NAS, slow hard drive, BTRFS and then 100s of thousands files with huge amounts of tags, embedded media and extra media in the folders.
In any other case the bottlenecks would be the library scraper itself, the database handling and ultimately the CPU speed of the streamer.
I'm not tempted to test this further with the WiiM products, MinimServer on NAS does it very fast. And mostly I just use folder access.
But I have heard that some upper range streamers feature bigger CPUs not only for their GUI speed. But also do very well with large library indexing and database handling. If it's relevant (or even a dramatic difference) is another thing. I'm sure I wouldn't spend 7k on a streamer with a MiniPC CPU just because it can potentially do what a NAS can do just as well on the side for a fraction of the cost.
In any other case the bottlenecks would be the library scraper itself, the database handling and ultimately the CPU speed of the streamer.
I'm not tempted to test this further with the WiiM products, MinimServer on NAS does it very fast. And mostly I just use folder access.
But I have heard that some upper range streamers feature bigger CPUs not only for their GUI speed. But also do very well with large library indexing and database handling. If it's relevant (or even a dramatic difference) is another thing. I'm sure I wouldn't spend 7k on a streamer with a MiniPC CPU just because it can potentially do what a NAS can do just as well on the side for a fraction of the cost.
Not an issue on any PC, but most streamers use £20 SBC cards. Try a plugging a 2TB SSD full of music into a streamer and see how the the GUI grinds. Ask me how I know! The main thing is that file parsing for tags/art is done ahead of time - doing it live on file system is the issue with slow compute.
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@Fritzjr, stop drinking the Audiophile Kool-Aid. Any streamer will give you the sound quality you need; SPDIF has been around for a very long time, and it's generally super reliable and stable. No need for special clocking or other nonsense. Decide on the feature set, usability, and user interface.
Yup - it largely comes down to how pretty you need it, in various senses of the word.
- Thread Starter
- #13
Thanks everyone for the replies - I really appreciate the vast experience out there.
Well, first things first, without taking any offense to the comment - I don't think it's exactly fair to claim that I am drinking any 'Kool Aid' if I just listen to what people with systems that sound fantastic (that I have heard myself in person) say and then ask questions of this larger community. I'd say it is a sign of an investigatory mind. I'm trying to learn, not buying anyone's snake oil at face value.
The reason I asked about some of the attributes and characteristics of some of these higher-end streamers is because from 40 years of experience in IT, I know that one type of 'cache' is not the same as another, Just like with Motherboards, Graphics cards, RAM, SSD's, NVME's, NIC's, etc. Sometimes you do get a better product if you pay more and sometimes you don't - it comes down to doing your due diligence with research.
With regard to onboard storage, yes I did mention that I have a brand new Synology NAS that I intend to network onto my LAN. I envision that that would be where the BIG library would be but that I might like to and 'might' benefit from having some of my most frequently played files stored on the streamer itself. Maybe that is an erroneous assumption or thought, but I thought I would be worth exploring.
The one thing that others here have mentioned regards the nice displays on many of these higher-end streamers. In my theater I do not intend on putting all my units/devices in a separate closet somewhere (I like to see my gear - especially the vintage stuff), and unfortunately those 4"-7" displays are not going to be readable from any listening distance anyway, so not a value-add really in my opinion. All of that info would be visible from the iPad or other interface.
I do believe in spending money on quality hardware of any type without going into the world of spending thousands of dollars on snake oil cable claims or other 'magic' crystals, etc. That's why I'm here asking questions from people with real world experience with some of these products.
Thanks again for all the information and opinions and I welcome all the more!
Well, first things first, without taking any offense to the comment - I don't think it's exactly fair to claim that I am drinking any 'Kool Aid' if I just listen to what people with systems that sound fantastic (that I have heard myself in person) say and then ask questions of this larger community. I'd say it is a sign of an investigatory mind. I'm trying to learn, not buying anyone's snake oil at face value.
The reason I asked about some of the attributes and characteristics of some of these higher-end streamers is because from 40 years of experience in IT, I know that one type of 'cache' is not the same as another, Just like with Motherboards, Graphics cards, RAM, SSD's, NVME's, NIC's, etc. Sometimes you do get a better product if you pay more and sometimes you don't - it comes down to doing your due diligence with research.
With regard to onboard storage, yes I did mention that I have a brand new Synology NAS that I intend to network onto my LAN. I envision that that would be where the BIG library would be but that I might like to and 'might' benefit from having some of my most frequently played files stored on the streamer itself. Maybe that is an erroneous assumption or thought, but I thought I would be worth exploring.
The one thing that others here have mentioned regards the nice displays on many of these higher-end streamers. In my theater I do not intend on putting all my units/devices in a separate closet somewhere (I like to see my gear - especially the vintage stuff), and unfortunately those 4"-7" displays are not going to be readable from any listening distance anyway, so not a value-add really in my opinion. All of that info would be visible from the iPad or other interface.
I do believe in spending money on quality hardware of any type without going into the world of spending thousands of dollars on snake oil cable claims or other 'magic' crystals, etc. That's why I'm here asking questions from people with real world experience with some of these products.
Thanks again for all the information and opinions and I welcome all the more!
What other kinds of cache, apart of RAM, are used for pre-fetching the (parts of the) tracks?
I too was a software dev, doing mostly networking, and then, surprisingly, ending up running an international team developing massive SAN storage. So it's no surprise I run a couple of NAS/RAID units as the central point of everything I do at home - music, videos, photos and total disk image backups of all our PCs....
It happens that one of my NAS/RAID units is a Synology box (with HDDs) that runs their "Media Server" app. You might ask why I bother with it, as the unit will run loads of "better" media servers, many as docker images. The reason is that it is not fancy - it is a fuss-free application and it "just works", which was the watchword when I made serious corporate-use equipment. Yes, I know it's a "home" NAS, and not a 40Gb fiber-channel unit or whatever they do since I retired, but bullet-proof is what I like.
If you have a decent NAS for various home use applications, it makes little sense to me to not store, and serve, my 2TB of music data to every device on my LAN in reliable, bit-perfect form. And DLNA does it beautifully, with all your tags and cover art. If you need to integrate online streaming platforms, you do need something better though. For me, with a big music collection already, it's far cheaper to buy used CDs (and rip them) and buy new albums as FLACs than to subscribe to a streaming platform - YMMV.
- Thread Starter
- #17
Exactly my point, and mechanisms can differ.
- Thread Starter
- #18
Agree 100% and appreciate your input. I do plan on using the 'Media Server' app in the Synology NAS and indeed storing any music on the streamer itself will be a bit if not totally redundant, but I just wanted to explore the idea. Thx!
Media server can run into memory limit. But most libraries will not trigger that. It's also a slow indexer.
IME MinimServer is faster and configurable in the memory regard.
What it doesn't do is scan on change. Cronjob and/or URL call required.
In general I think Synology boxes are great swiss army knives.
IME MinimServer is faster and configurable in the memory regard.
What it doesn't do is scan on change. Cronjob and/or URL call required.
In general I think Synology boxes are great swiss army knives.
Sure, maybe on some NAS versions, and historically there may have been various limitations. My Synology (Intel-based DS 423+) indexes 2TB of media from scratch in 15 mins (which is fine - it's only done once), and if I throw say, 5 CD rips at it at once, by the time I've loaded my app for my streamer on my phone, the data is there and ready to go over DLNA... And Media Server (or Indexing Service in fact) absolutely does monitor changes in watched folders and it responds quickly - there nothing special to set up. I think you must have some older unit!
Also, I regularly look at resource usage on my unit (because I'm Mr. Sad) and no more than 10% of RAM memory is ever in use, indexing or not - not dissimilar to a PC perhaps....
Please us the "memory limit" on your Synology NAS - there may upgrades that will help...
In my system, there is no evidence that shows Minim (I have tried it) to have any noticeable effect on a "speed" experience -minin is more of a pain to use of course - Media Server just requires two or three clicks to set up and start it. OK, I'm not arguing about any features of minim I don't use of course!
I used to make NAS/RAID units, and know you can make a better faster units than a Synology from any old PC - but I am Mr. Expedient and Mr. Cheap, and I have no more spare PCs lying around (I gave them all away); the main cost these days is disk storage!
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