Best Bang for your buck cartridge? Objective wise.

[SmokedBurger]

Currently have a Technics SL1501 Quartz that was salvaged and repaired from yahoo auctions .It is connected to the fosi phono box x5 I currently have it with the audio technica atvm95e which is an alright cartridge. I want to upgrade it to something else down the line and alot of people recommended the ATvm95ML but before I purchase that does anyone know anything better than it at around 200-300 usd max? If possible with measurements. Thanks!

 

[MaxwellsEq]

Currently have a Technics SL1501 Quartz that was salvaged and repaired from yahoo auctions .It is connected to the fosi phono box x5 I currently have it with the audio technica atvm95e which is an alright cartridge. I want to upgrade it to something else down the line and alot of people recommended the ATvm95ML but before I purchase that does anyone know anything better than it at around 200-300 usd max? If possible with measurements. Thanks!

This is the thread for you:

Introducing the Phono Cartridge Measurement Library

Skip to the index. After years of development we are finally launching our phono cartridge measurement library. These measurements were created using the brilliant cartridge response python script written by the legendary @scott wurcer and @JP. Information about its origins can be found in the...

audiosciencereview.com

 

[thewas]

I doubt someone is willing to go through an 80+ page thread of various old/new/used/discontinued/defect cartridge measurements to find such an answer.
It seems an index or thread for good cartridge recommendations seems to be really missing compared to other review segments?

 

[Snarfie]

I doubt someone is willing to go through an 80+ page thread of various old/new/used/discontinued/defect cartridge measurements to find such an answer.
It seems an index or thread for good cartridge recommendations seems to be really missing compared to other review segments?

Cartridges are by far not as transparent as DAC's so it looks like recommendations are quite subjective. Not to mention recommendations from people with different room acoustics.

 

[Petrushka]

Speakers are also subjective, we have ratings based on objective measurements.

 

[MaxwellsEq]

I doubt someone is willing to go through an 80+ page thread of various old/new/used/discontinued/defect cartridge measurements to find such an answer.
It seems an index or thread for good cartridge recommendations seems to be really missing compared to other review segments?

Yes, it's tricky isn't it. I've followed the thread from day one and read each contribution.

• In general for NOS, if you can get the right version of a Shure V, you are good.
• There seems to be a general lack of love for MCs.
• The Audio-Technica AT95 is popular
• The most tested seems to be the AT VM540ML which seems to be the sweet spot of good measurement vs price

 

[MaxwellsEq]

I would add that, the thread is a gold resource in my opinion. I wish I could have had access to such fascinating information when I was spending serious money on cartridges in the 80s.

What it shows reliably is how high the distortion is - we get used to negative reviews of amplifiers distortion at -80dB, yet -40dB in the critical frequencies is not uncommon here and it's far higher where we have less sensitivity (fortunately). It also shows what a mess everything is below 50Hz and what a maelstrom of resonance and hash there is above 10kHz...

 

[DVDdoug]

I haven't bought a cartridge since the vinyl days, but I'd say don't go too cheap or too crazy. Personally, I wouldn't spend $500, but it also depends on what $500 (or more) means to you.

The main difference in "sound" is frequency response, and the records themselves vary, especially older records which were often a bit "dull" (rolled-highs). And you can correct the frequency response with EQ or tone controls, whether the errors are in the record or caused by the cartridge.

...I knew that back when I was playing records, but I was still foolishly always upgrading, or wanting to upgrade, and I felt like I was cheating (and that my system was inadequate) if I was using the tone controls.

Some cartridges also "track" better than others and that can make a difference with certain "hard to track" records.

 

[therobin]

I been thinking about getting a cartridge for a turntable setup recently and I have the same dilemma. I saw the measurement thread but that thread is too long for me to go through and would also require educating myself on the dynamics of analog audio measurements.

I was hoping to find a recommendation index for different price points or something to look at.

I am hoping to spending something like $200CAD on a good cartridge that would get the most of vinyl. But I don't know enough in area to make a education decision and the threads with the measure can be overwhelming to follow through.

The AT VM540ML cost $250CAD from BayBloorRadio in Toronto. Is that a good bang of the buck price/cartridge?

 

[mike70]

I have the vm540ml and ... simply it's fantastic.
Monster tracking and lots of detail, for the price ... awesome.

 

[SmokedBurger]

I doubt someone is willing to go through an 80+ page thread of various old/new/used/discontinued/defect cartridge measurements to find such an answer.
It seems an index or thread for good cartridge recommendations seems to be really missing compared to other review segments?

Yes, it's tricky isn't it. I've followed the thread from day one and read each contribution.

• In general for NOS, if you can get the right version of a Shure V, you are good.
• There seems to be a general lack of love for MCs.
• The Audio-Technica AT95 is popular
• The most tested seems to be the AT VM540ML which seems to be the sweet spot of good measurement vs price

Yeah... ive been looking at that thread specifically at the audio technica segment vm95xxx, vm540/740ml, nagaoka pearl, sumiko 100/110 parts. its just that i did not see a general consensus on which ones are the "best" for their price point subjective wise. I wanted to get the maximum out of my turntable as most of my records are just japanese city pop records since i like to chill with them at night. I am definitely going to look for vm540/740ml cartridges as a good upgrade. thanks for the tldr of the threads!

 

[DSJR]

The VM95ML seems to be a firm low cost model and a big step up from the 95E (all ATs with bonded diamonds tend to be a little 'closed-in' sounding to me, easily audible when compared to the better-tipped models in each range). It's apparently longer lasting too. The 95SH should sound a little more 'subtle' up top, but the generator system then starts to get in the way I'd suggest with lop-sided separation as measured over the decades. The VM500 series offers posher wiring and better internal construction and shielding I believe.

The VM540 does seem to be the next step up and the average 'technics' tonearm always seemed happy with the ancestral 440MLa model. The 540 tames it's ancestral toppy-peak a bit and the 2g tracking helps these older massier arms in terms of stability I'd suggest. The related metal-mount 740 could also be considered, as the 'tone' is slightly gentler (all else the same I believe including the stylus assembly).

I'm a huge fan of the Ortofon 2M models. According to the german Lowbeats measurements, they have a healthier output than claimed which I'd suggest needs a phono stage with good overload margins. The 2M Blue is a bit 'fussy' i gather, but I love the 2M bronze dearly, as it has a sense o life and punch in very much a 'good digital' way, overcoming to my old ears, much of the losses in the vinyl medium. Prices are rising though...

I can't recommend the tarted up but old fashioned Sumikos, as the internals are from the 1970s if not before and the designs I've seen measurted, suffer the mid kHz suckouts common to many from the 60s and 70s (old Shures classic for this). Bass is meaty sounding as a result though...

[edit] - P.S. The Sumiko models may well appeal to those favouring a beefy, more overtly 'analogue era' tone however (oldies like me can equate a Pearl model to the A&R E77, Supex SM100E, Rega R100 and so on*) and looking on a couple of other forums, the livelier and more 'neutral-to-sparkly' sound of piuckups like the ones I mention above, upset their systems and ears I suspect, the extra hf still not to their tastes after forty plus years of 'domestic' digital sources...

* Even older oldies like me may remember the Shure V15T2 and derived M75/91 (M70?) ranges, the M75-ED being by far the most popular model in the UK in the early to mid 70s. The Sumiko MMs do seem to perform and 'sound' similarly, where the subjective perception is a beefy strong bass line and a 'restrained' higher frequency range...

 

[SmokedBurger]

Thanks for the insight! I can't decide between the vm95ml bnew or the 540ml second hand (10 hours used as said by owner). Ortofon seems to be a generally good cartridge but is it better than the audio technica mls ?

 

[mike70]

"better" is a great subjective term

what is totally objective is ... Ortofon is pricier than AT for the same "features" ... i mean, the first fine line stylus cut is the bronze at almost double price than vm540ml.
I decided to buy the AT vm540ml.

There're some "details" about it ... AT needs low capacitance (low capacitance rca cables and phono preamp) and Ortofon doesn't need it (works with higher capacitance).
So, i bought short and low capacitance cables and my phono preamp have 100pf capacitance.

That's my "experience" and let me say a final thing: people that wants the "old" cartridge sound (recesed mids, pronounced bass) look elsewhere ... this new cartridges / fine line styluses have a flatter response (more "digital" to say it quick). And i love it, now i can listen to vinyl as what recorded and i can do eq if i want it, but without any previous frequency loss because the cartridge have a 70s eq included

 

[DSJR]

Thanks for the insight! I can't decide between the vm95ml bnew or the 540ml second hand (10 hours used as said by owner). Ortofon seems to be a generally good cartridge but is it better than the audio technica mls ?

Just my view here -

The 95ML - to me - is a crisp (but not acidic) and lively balance and at retail prices, an excellent value pickup. In today's digital world, the VM540 is roughly where, fifty years on, the once ubiquitous M75-ED would be. Lowbeats tested it and posted sound-bites if you care to use a translator and look it up. I've not 'heard' a VM740 but the slightly 'gentler balance and metallic mount appeals hugely to me, knowing my Dual 701 tonearm as I feel I do after half a century.

If you can get a guaranteed low-hours 540 for half or two-thirds price, I'd grab it I think.

I baulked at the 2M prices when they were first introduced a number of years back, but Ortofon held these prices for some years while 'everyone else except AT' seemed to leapfrog in costs over them. It looks as if the 2Ms are now going up in price and the £300 Bronze is now £365 or so. You lot must forgive me here, as I still naturally price a lot of gear in 1980s terms, not initially realising that it's nearly half a century on now and bonkers again sice the 2008 financial situation (I still maintain some makers used '2008' to up their pricing higher than necessary, as th emarket seemed immune to the extra prices - just my view however and off topic)

Hope the stuff above helps a bit and forgive my moans as regards prices for these things.

 

[drmevo]

Thanks for the insight! I can't decide between the vm95ml bnew or the 540ml second hand (10 hours used as said by owner). Ortofon seems to be a generally good cartridge but is it better than the audio technica mls ?

I don't believe so, based on what I've heard. The Bronze and OM30 are nice, but they are way over your stated budget of $300 (~$400+ USD), and anything lower than those (2M Blue, OM20) are bested by the VM95ML, IME. The 2M and OM20 do sound pretty good, but they are elliptical will suffer IGD with some records, which I personally can't tolerate. I would still take the VM540ML over all of them in my set up, but in your case...

There're some "details" about it ... AT needs low capacitance (low capacitance rca cables and phono preamp) and Ortofon doesn't need it (works with higher capacitance).
So, i bought short and low capacitance cables and my phono preamp have 100pf capacitance.

This really applies with your Fosi X5 because it has come to light that it has 150pF input capacitance. That makes it very difficult to stay under the 200pF recommended max of the VM540ML. Sure, you can go over that a bit, and it might not really make a huge audible difference, but it would be ideal to have a phono amp with lower input capacitance. I would recommend the VM95ML (as an owner of both cartridges), as it is not as sensitive to capacitance and it won't be a problem to be a bit over 200pF. You'd still want low-capacitance RCA cables.

 

[SmokedBurger]

I don't believe so, based on what I've heard. The Bronze and OM30 are nice, but they are way over your stated budget of $300 (~$400+ USD), and anything lower than those (2M Blue, OM20) are bested by the VM95ML, IME. The 2M and OM20 do sound pretty good, but they are elliptical will suffer IGD with some records, which I personally can't tolerate. I would still take the VM540ML over all of them in my set up, but in your case...

This really applies with your Fosi X5 because it has come to light that it has 150pF input capacitance. That makes it very difficult to stay under the 200pF recommended max of the VM540ML. Sure, you can go over that a bit, and it might not really make a huge audible difference, but it would be ideal to have a phono amp with lower input capacitance. I would recommend the VM95ML (as an owner of both cartridges), as it is not as sensitive to capacitance and it won't be a problem to be a bit over 200pF. You'd still want low-capacitance RCA cables.

Is capacitance different from input impedence? Ive seen some phono preamps have a feature of variable input impedence

 

[beeface]

Cartridges are by far not as transparent as DAC's so it looks like recommendations are quite subjective. Not to mention recommendations from people with different room acoustics.

agreed, while I appreciate there being an indexed library of measurements, I've never really known where to begin. it'd be a great help if there was some sort of ranking, or a table with scores assigned, similar to this

 

[AnalogSteph]

Is capacitance different from input impedence?

It's part of it.
Z_in = R_in || 1/(jωC_in)

You can listen to the difference between some VM95 versions here, for example:

https://soundcloud.com/lowbeats-magazine%2Fsets%2Fphono-cartridge-sound-oracle

They've got the C, E, EN and SH. No ML, but there's the VM510CB, 520EB, 530EN and 540ML for a similar lineup that's got an ML instead of a Shibata.

The corresponding VM95 article with measurements is here (use translation):

Familientest Audio-Technica VM95: 5 MM-Abtaster unter 200 Euro - LowBeats

Nicht einen, nein, gleich fünf neue MM-Tonabnehmer bringt Audio-Technica in den Markt. Die gemeinsam

www.lowbeats.de

The IMD values ("Doppelton-Verzerrungen (1800/2200 Hz)") would seem to make a pretty good predictor for what I heard, alongside crosstalk and FR.

Since you have the VM95E already, I would strongly consider getting one of the fancier replacement styli for it, like the VMN95ML or VMN95SH. They should all be within your budget and seem to be very nice-sounding. The minimum to these ears would be the EN, though supposedly it may be subject to early wear or something?
The VM540ML does post even better measurements, the only negative I can find is it being a bit hot in the upper treble (experimenting with loading may address that, ATs traditionally tend to like lower capacitance and/or lower resistance; the latter is a proven approach if you cannot possibly reduce capacitance even more, though it does bring down the upper bandwidth limit somewhat).

 

[SmokedBurger]

It's part of it.
Z_in = R_in || 1/(jωC_in)

You can listen to the difference between some VM95 versions here, for example:

https://soundcloud.com/lowbeats-magazine%2Fsets%2Fphono-cartridge-sound-oracle

They've got the C, E, EN and SH. No ML, but there's the VM510CB, 520EB, 530EN and 540ML for a similar lineup that's got an ML instead of a Shibata.

The corresponding VM95 article with measurements is here (use translation):

Familientest Audio-Technica VM95: 5 MM-Abtaster unter 200 Euro - LowBeats

Nicht einen, nein, gleich fünf neue MM-Tonabnehmer bringt Audio-Technica in den Markt. Die gemeinsam

www.lowbeats.de

The IMD values ("Doppelton-Verzerrungen (1800/2200 Hz)") would seem to make a pretty good predictor for what I heard, alongside crosstalk and FR.

Since you have the VM95E already, I would strongly consider getting one of the fancier replacement styli for it, like the VMN95ML or VMN95SH. They should all be within your budget and seem to be very nice-sounding. The minimum to these ears would be the EN, though supposedly it may be subject to early wear or something?
The VM540ML does post even better measurements, the only negative I can find is it being a bit hot in the upper treble (experimenting with loading may address that, ATs traditionally tend to like lower capacitance and/or lower resistance if you can't do that).

Thanks for the tip! I might get the vm540ml second hand @ 10 hours simply because its at the same price as the vm95ml in the future i will replace the fosi phono preamp with lower capacitance one