Best AVR solution for a 2.2 + 1 setup

[sacx]

Hello all,
I am Alex and new to this forum. I read a few threads in the past and liked the professionalism.

I am currently using the IOTAVX AVX1 and a MiniDSP 2x4HD with Dirac. I had two full range speakers from ABACUS connected and one Reckhorn with 2x Ibeams.
I recently sold the ABACUS speakers and bought 2x KSD C88 speakers and 2x KSD D88 subwoofer. So I now have a 2.2 + 1 (Ibeams) System

I think, I can still use the IOTAVX AVX1 and the MiniDSP with that setup... but as always, we all try to find something better.

So what do I need:

I need a pre-amp with up to 4x HDMI 2.0 in for my HTPC, Sat-Receiver, Switch and upcoming BluRay-Player.
The pre-amp should have Spotify included and should have a analog input for my turntable.
That's all Pretty simple I guess... BUT I would also like to have DIRAC or any other very good room correction system included without spending many thousand euros!

My original plan was to get the MiniDSP SHD and a 4x1 HDMI Switch.
But maybe you have a better solution for me.

I have also seen the Emotivia XMC-1 but as far as I understood I need the HDMI Upgrade Kit for it, right?
Also I read your review here and that there are also some issues e.g. -90db cut off, ...

Hopefully you can help me


Thank you all in advance!

Kind regards,
Alex

 

[Dimifoot]

I have also seen the Emotivia XMC-1 but as far as I understood I need the HDMI Upgrade Kit for it, right?

If you are planning to use 4K/HDR projector/TV, then yes.
If not, then the XMC-1 is an option, used only, since it has been replaced by the new XMC -2,
But no Spotify.

 

[sacx]

@Dimi: Thank you for your answer.



Since I have my Home Theater I never had more than 2 channels and there are no plans to change that in the future. That's why I usually don't want to use an AVR with X-channels but there is no stereo pre amp with HDMI as well. The XMC1 has a good price indeed

My plan is to use the MiniDSP SHD which also got a very good review here.
I can connect my two speaker and two subwoofers via XLR to the SHD and use DIRAC to make the room correction.

The several digital and analog inputs I could use to send the audio from my devices to the SHD.

HTPC via USB
Sat-Receiver via Optical or SPDIF
Turntable with turntable amplifier via Analog
Nintendo Switch via SPDIF

So the overall inputs should be enough.

As far as I understand the MiniDSP can’t decode any HT formats like DTS, Dolby Digital, ATMOS, etc..

For that purpose I should usually use an AVR. But often the AVR quality in the “low cost” range is kind of weak which is the reason I am looking for alternatives.
So if I set my Playback devices (e.g. HTPC, Sat-Receiver, BluRay-Player, …) to PCM 2.0 the MiniDSP should be able to handle the information, right?

Do you see any huge audio quality issues here because of the PCM format?
HDMI would be routed by a HDMI Switch to my projector...

Or is the use of a pre-amp with DIRAC (e.g. XMC1) just the better option?

 

[Willem]

I also use my 2 channel audio system for home theatre. I decided long ago that two big speakers (Quad 2805, plus sub) is the maximum I want to have in my living room. All my sources have optical/coaxial outputs and I use their pcm stereo output. hdmi is only used for the video part. IN my case I use an RME ADI-2 DAC as my pre amplifier. It does not have any analogue inputs, so I use a Pro-ject Phono E box Optical as a phono pre amplifier and ADC to produce a digital input for the ADI-2. This works very well, at least within the inevitable limitations of vinyl. The miniDSP SHD should be a similar pre amplifier, but with more dsp room eq than what the ADI-2 provides.

 

[KozmoNaut]

My plan is to use the MiniDSP SHD which also got a very good review here.
I can connect my two speaker and two subwoofers via XLR to the SHD and use DIRAC to make the room correction.

The several digital and analog inputs I could use to send the audio from my devices to the SHD.

HTPC via USB
Sat-Receiver via Optical or SPDIF
Turntable with turntable amplifier via Analog
Nintendo Switch via SPDIF

So the overall inputs should be enough.

As far as I understand the MiniDSP can’t decode any HT formats like DTS, Dolby Digital, ATMOS, etc..

I have a 2.1 setup (with two subs sharing the mono sub+LFE signal), using a Denon 7.1 AVR, of which I am obviously only using the two front channels and the sub output.

I have considered moving to a setup like yours, with a MiniDSP SHD for DSP/EQ/crossover and switching between digital/analog inputs. Digital devices (HTPC, Chromecast etc.) would plug into the TV via HDMI, which would in turn feed the SHD through TOSLINK/SPDIF. With everything set to PCM 2.0, there would be no issues for the DAC in the SHD. Obviously my turntable would plug into the SHD's analog inputs.

This would certainly work, and you could either let the devices themselves downsample to stereo, or have the TV handle it.

But there is a caveat: you will lose the LFE channel. I don't know of any devices that include the LFE channel when downmixeing to stereo. There's already very limited room for 5, 6, 7+ channels in a stereo signal, you have to attenuate them to varying degrees in order to make the signal not clip. The LFE channel is simply seen as non-essential and taking up space that is better used for the main channels when downmixing, so it is left out. I know you can force some software layers to include it with a custom downmix ratio, but it's a hassle.

Now, according to the specs, the LFE channel is supposed to only provide deep bass reinforcement to the bass content that is already present in the main channels, so you won't be missing out on any content. You will probably find that your subs aren't doing as much as they could, and you won't get that movie theater big rumble in action sequences.

To get the full Monty including LFE, you need to either send your signal to a proper multichannel decoder, or decode in software and send the decoded signal as multi-channel PCM to a multichannel DAC

 

[Willem]

I am not sure this is right. As I wrote, I also use a two channel set up with a subwoofer connected at speaker level. When I play a Bluray, the deep bass can be very deep indeed.

 

[sacx]

Hi all, thank you for your input.

Yes, PCM "2.0" is also bothering me. I just read following article:

https://hometheaterhifi.com/editorial/the-misunderstood-01-lfe-channel-in-51-digital-surround-sound/

There they explain LFE from real cinema and home cinema point of view.
What I understood so far is, that the PCM signal can still provide deep bass information but not with the +10db offset.

In the MiniDSP SHD it would be possible to set the subwoofer to higher levels but that would be the whole sub information and not dedicated to the LFE signal itself. The writer of the article also advises to not use the specific LFE channels for the subwoofer but the normal speaker channel. Because there you have more information than on the LFE channel and you can help the main speakers in the bass area more.

 

[KozmoNaut]

I am not sure this is right. As I wrote, I also use a two channel set up with a subwoofer connected at speaker level. When I play a Bluray, the deep bass can be very deep indeed.

The LFE channel is additional bass information, to reinforce the bass already in the main channels. According to the spec, there must never be content solely in the LFE channel and not in the main channels.

So you're not losing information as such, but you are missing the extra emphasis the LFE channel is used for in certain situations where extra rumble is used in the soundtrack.

You may decide that this is perfectly ok, that's up to you. Personally, I like having it.

 

[zuli]

I have a Denon AVC X6500 for a 5.2 system, where the L and R are connected to external amplifiers to the Denon's pre-outs. I'm using the Audysseys room correction.

If I use a miniDSP SHD, where I connect my L+R + 2 subs, and I connect the miniDSP to the L and R pre outs from the Denon, am I getting a better stereo solution, where actually the stereo solution is a 2.2 with Dirac correction?
Can I use the miniDSP as a HT bypass and sync the audio? Do I need to add another subwoofer connected to the Denon for the LFE?

 

[Willem]

I am perfectly happy with the deep bass that I have in my stereo system, with more or less full output down to 12 Hz. Saving Private Ryan is scary enough as it is, and so are many other titles. Anyway, my system is primarily an audio system. I have connected it to my plasma screen because the inbuilt audio was so disappointing compared to what the stereo system can do.

 

[TimW]

I run a 2.2 system for music, movies, and TV using the SHD as my preamp. I run HDMI only devices to my TV and use the optical output of that to feed the SHD. On these devices and my TV I set the output to 2.0 PCM and I have no issues. With the good even bass extension I get with my dual subs I feel no need for extra LFE bass. Of course that may just be because I haven't experienced it.

I really like how the SHD works. The display and remote are simple and immediate making it perform just like any old piece of stereo gear in day to day use. My Turntable is connected to it via XLR and my Tuner via RCA and using them with this preamp feels just as natural as using a legacy product. Then there is the miniDSP plugin program which I am accustom to and enjoy using because of its excellent feature set and real time adjustability. The included streamer has limited usability for me because it runs Volumio. I have used it with roon using Airplay which is not ideal. With Airplay I can't control the streamer with the web interface and roon has to resample the files. Really wish miniDSP/Volumio would add native roon support to this device.

I have owned the SHD for a couple of months now but I have still not been able to use Dirac 2.0. I have used Dirac 1 with a miniDSP DDRC-24 but for the life of my I can not get Dirac 2.0 to work with my SHD. The installation process and setup to get it to work is ridiculous, and when you run into issues there are no simple answers which is maddening. From the miniDSP support forum it seems like this Dirac 2.0 implementation is just buggy and lots of people have issues with it that come and go.

 

[sacx]

Hi Kozmo, I think I need to dig more into the LFE topic. The question is, is the LFE information (frequency <120Hz) just increased by +10db over the whole range or only selected scenes?! If so, you could increase the subwoofers in dB in Dirac but I would guess that will lead to inhomogeneous sound experience. In Dirac I could also set different house curves for movies (increased low frequency range) and music. I think I will give it a try in the future

Hi TimW, yes, the SHD looks great and comfortable to use. I don't use Airplay and am totally fine with the Volumio and Spotify plugin, if it works flawless
The SHD also works with DIRAC v1 I guess. I think I will just wait until the issues are solved before updating to v2. I think that will be solved in the near future.

Now the only thing I am missing is a good HDMI switch that works reliable with 4k @60Hz material

 

[KozmoNaut]

The question is, is the LFE information (frequency <120Hz) just increased by +10db over the whole range or only selected scenes?!

The LFE channel is recorded so that it matches the main channels when amplified by +10dB. This is done to improve the headroom for loud bass effects, because in certain scenes you need that extra oomph to really make the audience feel the rumble.

There is sometimes a bit of confusion from some people calling it the "subwoofer channel", which is incorrect. If you are running full range speakers and set them as such, the only signal that will go to the subwoofer is the LFE channel. But the majority of people will set their speakers as "small", which means the bass management will high-pass the signal sent to them and send the low bass frequencies (for instance everything below 80Hz) to the subwoofer. Then the subwoofer will be playing the sub-80Hz content from the main tracks and the 0-120Hz LFE channel.

I wouldn't boost the subwoofer by +10dB for movies, that would make the bass content from the main channels way too loud.

 

[sacx]

Hi Kozmo, yes, that's how most people do it. Set the full range speakers to small, so that they don't need to do the hard work at low frequencies. So as you wrote, the subwoofer now needs to reproduce everything below 80Hz on the track AND the LFE. I think the same was written in the article I linked. For home cinema the "pure LFE" channel is mostly not used because of the "small speaker setting". Therefore I think that using PCM can reproduce nearly the same. No, I wouldn't change the low frequencies by +10dB in the house curve. That would be indeed too much. But when I make the cut from the subwoofer to the full range speakers at 80Hz or below, I could increase the subwoofer volume step by step to see if I can get a good overall experience or I leave it as it is

 

[KozmoNaut]

The LFE channel is used in home cinema, it's added on top of the other content going to the subwoofer. By cutting out the LFE channel, the output from the subwoofer would be reduced, compared to if the LFE channel is kept.

If a movie soundtrack uses the LFE channel heavily, you can't really "fake" it by simply boosting the frequencies going to the sub, you could end up with very boomy male voices, for instance.

 

[Dj7675]

I run a 2.2 system for music, movies, and TV using the SHD as my preamp. I run HDMI only devices to my TV and use the optical output of that to feed the SHD. On these devices and my TV I set the output to 2.0 PCM and I have no issues. With the good even bass extension I get with my dual subs I feel no need for extra LFE bass. Of course that may just be because I haven't experienced it.

I really like how the SHD works. The display and remote are simple and immediate making it perform just like any old piece of stereo gear in day to day use. My Turntable is connected to it via XLR and my Tuner via RCA and using them with this preamp feels just as natural as using a legacy product. Then there is the miniDSP plugin program which I am accustom to and enjoy using because of its excellent feature set and real time adjustability. The included streamer has limited usability for me because it runs Volumio. I have used it with roon using Airplay which is not ideal. With Airplay I can't control the streamer with the web interface and roon has to resample the files. Really wish miniDSP/Volumio would add native roon support to this device.

I have owned the SHD for a couple of months now but I have still not been able to use Dirac 2.0. I have used Dirac 1 with a miniDSP DDRC-24 but for the life of my I can not get Dirac 2.0 to work with my SHD. The installation process and setup to get it to work is ridiculous, and when you run into issues there are no simple answers which is maddening. From the miniDSP support forum it seems like this Dirac 2.0 implementation is just buggy and lots of people have issues with it that come and go.

You may already be aware, but the minidsp shd is a native (RAAT) endpoint now. I use it every day and it works well. Until it gets official roon certification (it has been submitted by minidsp) you have to change roon volume on the minidsp and not within roon. Minidsp says once it is approved roon volume changes will be supported and the volume in roon will change the master volume on the minidsp shd.

 

[TimW]

You may already be aware, but the minidsp shd is a native (RAAT) endpoint now. I use it every day and it works well. Until it gets official roon certification (it has been submitted by minidsp) you have to change roon volume on the minidsp and not within roon. Minidsp says once it is approved roon volume changes will be supported and the volume in roon will change the master volume on the minidsp shd.

Thanks man. I actually found out about it last weekend and have been enjoying it. Yesterday I noticed it make some sort of boot up sound when the SHD is turned on and the LAN input is selected. I don't mind the lack of volume control in roon, I like using the SHD remote and viewing the volume on its screen.