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Best AV Processor under $3k? Lexicon MC-10, Anthem AVM 60, or something else?

miike888

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I never realized this is such a pain-point for everyone here? If no one wants to believe that there is any break in with equipment, regardless of what it is, I'm totally fine with that and have absolutely no problem with it.

I'm not here to lie or spread lies, I gave an opinion and am just here to help out with questions based around our products and contribute to that when asked. Thanks.

but if you cant prove any scientific fact that you have done double blind listening tests and been right in those.....whats the point?? why are you even writing those subjective imaginations here?

and when you write it doesnt show up in measurements........where on earth does it show up??????
 

cbrents73

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This is a science forum, where we challenge these types of claims, not support them with no reason to other than your say so.

If you can't measure a difference between the broken in one and the non broken in one, how do you know when it's broken in enough?

If you can scrape up anything from your engineering folks to support that, I'd love to see it. Otherwise, it just seems like a way to get a customer to go beyond the return window when the magic differences aren't there.

If you don't want to discuss and support these issues, don't make the claims.

No one is trying to get people to keep things they don't want or aren't interested in - I'm sorry, I don't even get where that comes from? It's really ok if no one wants to take my advice or believe my opinion, I'll get over it :). I have a tremendous amount of audio experience and I like to share the knowledge I've learned from others in our industry. As much as it's my profession, it's also my hobby and why I'm here.
 

cbrents73

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but if you cant prove any scientific fact that you have done double blind listening tests and been right in those.....whats the point?? why are you even writing those subjective imaginations here?

and when you write it doesnt show up in measurements........where on earth does it show up??????

I say - just don't worry about it. I'm truly sorry I've offended all with this opinion. Thanks.
 

stunta

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I’d suggest we all drop this break-in topic before it becomes yet another “capacitor” discussion. It’s clear there is no scientific evidence from Anthem so let’s just dismiss the claim and move on. Please. No point in beating this dead horse. Let’s try to keep Chris here to answer other questions about Anthem products.
 

miike888

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No one is trying to get people to keep things they don't want or aren't interested in - I'm sorry, I don't even get where that comes from? It's really ok if no one wants to take my advice or believe my opinion, I'll get over it :). I have a tremendous amount of audio experience and I like to share the knowledge I've learned from others in our industry. As much as it's my profession, it's also my hobby and why I'm here.

sorry to say.......but you are a victim that been told lies by ” audiophiles” in decades of your life and thats sad!:/

dont want to be rude but the best thing you can do is to forget what youve been told/learned and start from the beginning......the best thing i can promise you is that it wont take decades to learn.

//Mike
 

BDWoody

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No one is trying to get people to keep things they don't want or aren't interested in - I'm sorry, I don't even get where that comes from? It's really ok if no one wants to take my advice or believe my opinion, I'll get over it :). I have a tremendous amount of audio experience and I like to share the knowledge I've learned from others in our industry. As much as it's my profession, it's also my hobby and why I'm here.

And most of us are here for the same reason. One of the primary reasons this site exists, is to challenge the accepted 'audiophile' myths so we aren't wasting time or money chasing the latest and greatest, or most recent often outrageous claim of where sound improvement comes from.

Digital Cables
One competent DAC vs another
Exotic analog cables beyond what's required for spec
Superiority of vinyl, crazy high sample rates and DSD...etc.
Burn-in

It's all in the same nonsense pile until someone, anyone, can show it under controlled conditions.
The industry counts on ignorance. We prefer to understand. Magic woo (unmeasurable sprinkles from the audiophool heavens) isn't going to get very far.
 

cbrents73

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sorry to say.......but you are a victim that been told lies by ” audiophiles” in decades of your life and thats sad!:/

dont want to be rude but the best thing you can do is to forget what youve been told/learned and start from the beginning......the best thing i can promise you is that it wont take decades to learn.

//Mike

Anthem/Paradigm will make no claim to this, but some manufacturers will. It's never been about what I was told. I was told by some pretty smart and great people in the industry, but I had to experiment myself, and I believed (heard) the results. Again, I've listened to a lot of gear over the years. Just don't worry about it. If you can't hear it, then don't buy it or buy into it - it really is just that simple.
 

BDWoody

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I say - just don't worry about it. I'm truly sorry I've offended all with this opinion. Thanks.

Nobody is offended, some of us can sometimes be a bit overprotective of our snake oil free oasis... Likewise, sorry if it came across more aggressively than needed.

Cheers.
 

cbrents73

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And most of us are here for the same reason. One of the primary reasons this site exists, is to challenge the accepted 'audiophile' myths so we aren't wasting time or money chasing the latest and greatest, or most recent often outrageous claim of where sound improvement comes from.

Digital Cables
One competent DAC vs another
Exotic analog cables beyond what's required for spec
Superiority of vinyl, crazy high sample rates and DSD...etc.
Burn-in

It's all in the same nonsense pile until someone, anyone, can show it under controlled conditions.
The industry counts on ignorance. We prefer to understand. Magic woo (unmeasurable sprinkles from the audiophool heavens) isn't going to get very far.

If there's one thing I've learned from this industry - spec's don't mean squat. It can give you an idea of what it's like, but doesn't show the whole picture. You just have to trust your ears, and if you can't hear then I would say find a new hobby because your ears are the only instrument worth believing. Things either sound better or they don't. If it's close, then is it worth the amount of money you're looking at paying?

We are value oriented company trying to give the biggest bang for the dollar spent, but I think a lot of companies try to be what we are. This should be about having fun and enjoying what you're watching or listening to. If receivers were the proper way to build a device to recreate sound, separates wouldn't exist if they weren't truly better. At the end of the day, if you can't hear or tell the difference, then simply don't buy it. I don't think it's any harder than that, but some people in this industry sure try to make it be...
 

cbrents73

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Friends,
For what it's worth - I really do appreciate your passion, enthusiasm and vigor with which you all question things - it shows a tremendous amount of caring for our industry which we need. There will always be things that we agree to disagree on, but I'll always say - keep the passion!

Thanks all!
 

cbrents73

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I’d suggest we all drop this break-in topic before it becomes yet another “capacitor” discussion. It’s clear there is no scientific evidence from Anthem so let’s just dismiss the claim and move on. Please. No point in beating this dead horse. Let’s try to keep Chris here to answer other questions about Anthem products.
Thank you, I truly appreciate the sentiment!
 

BDWoody

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You just have to trust your ears

I do, but only when I've got something level matched and don't know the source, otherwise I'm just as fallible as everyone else who is subject to bias.

What I don't trust is anyone's ears when they are reporting an uncontrolled purely subjective experience.

if you can't hear then I would say find a new hobby

If I can't hear what exactly? The differences you claim you hear from burn-in? Cheap vs expensive cables?

If you can't back up your claims, then don't make them.
 

miike888

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If there's one thing I've learned from this industry - spec's don't mean squat. It can give you an idea of what it's like, but doesn't show the whole picture. You just have to trust your ears, and if you can't hear then I would say find a new hobby because your ears are the only instrument worth believing. Things either sound better or they don't. If it's close, then is it worth the amount of money you're looking at paying?

We are value oriented company trying to give the biggest bang for the dollar spent, but I think a lot of companies try to be what we are. This should be about having fun and enjoying what you're watching or listening to. If receivers were the proper way to build a device to recreate sound, separates wouldn't exist if they weren't truly better. At the end of the day, if you can't hear or tell the difference, then simply don't buy it. I don't think it's any harder than that, but some people in this industry sure try to make it be...

this is exactly the opposite of what the science shows!
 

Sal1950

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I’d suggest we all drop this break-in topic before it becomes yet another “capacitor” discussion. It’s clear there is no scientific evidence from Anthem so let’s just dismiss the claim and move on. Please. No point in beating this dead horse. Let’s try to keep Chris here to answer other questions about Anthem products.
AMEN, Nothing to be gained here and a good line of communication to be possibly lost with a major manufacturer.
Don't worry, be happy. LOL
 

cbrents73

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I do, but only when I've got something level matched and don't know the source, otherwise I'm just as fallible as everyone else who is subject to bias.

What I don't trust is anyone's ears when they are reporting an uncontrolled purely subjective experience.



If I can't hear what exactly? The differences you claim you hear from burn-in? Cheap vs expensive cables?

If you can't back up your claims, then don't make them.

this is exactly the opposite of what the science shows!
this is exactly the opposite of what the science shows!


Ugh, I didn't say trust my ears or anyone else's, trust your own.

Serious question - do all electronics sound the same to you?
 

Vasr

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I think we can disagree with a subjectivist view but keep the tone civil and non-aggressive... unless we want to be defined as an intolerant cult.

Unless it gets into subjectivist trolling... ;)
 

Vasr

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Serious question - do all electronics sound the same to you?

Non-sequitur. Nobody claims all electronics sound the same, just electronics that measure the same.

I have a few guitar amps which all sounds different. They will also show up in measurements.
 
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