Best Amp for B&W 802D3

[voodooless]

It’s funny how everyone ignores the actual goal the OP has:

just chasing for better sound.

If you’re chasing better sound, then changing amps is usually a poor investment.

The OP already has DSP functionality with CamilaDSP, uses REW. So I assume measurement mic is also present.

I bet the very best investment can be totally for free: just post the measurements and have a few people look at them and suggest some EQ optimizations.

You may also try to apply these just for fun: https://www.spinorama.org/speakers/Bowers & Wilkins 803 D3/Bowers & Wilkins/index_vendor.html

See if you like the speaker when it’s much more linear.

 

[Head_Unit]

all B&W speakers from the last 25 years, have a quite broad a deep dip in the upper midrange and lower tweeter. Often between 1-4 kHz.

Hmm I never thought about it but maybe that is a kind of "loudness compensation" on their part.

 

[Digital_Thor]

Hmm I never thought about it but maybe that is a kind of "loudness compensation" on their part.

Could be, and that is quite ok, if people who buy them, understand that this is a potential philosophy behind the design, which also might make them sound more 'closed' and laid back compared to a more neutral speaker.
Further, the response of this 'design philosophy', can't be corrected by EQ like on most KEF speakers for example, since the power response - the response at all angles - is 'locked' by the speakers physical design and built in cross over filter.
Overall EQ can smooth out some of the worst dips and peaks though.

 

[Audiolab800]

I recently sort of took the route you’re planning in reverse, replacing the quite powerful Musical Fidelity A/B integrated that served me well for 25 years with a Fosi ZA3 stereo amp, cousin to your mono Fosi V3. My speakers, the MoFi SourcePoint 8, are roughly in the same specs ballpark as your B&Ws.

Unexpected good results is right! The Fosi amp (together with the superb Schiit Saga 2 preamp) easily matches the perceived performance, volume, and sound quality with my old Musical Fidelity. I’m currently feeling cured of any itch to pursue the idea of fancier pricier amplification as a path to “upgrading.”

Indeed the Fosi V3's are surprisingly good, I'm asking myself have they the necessary protections to avoid DC out to the speakers in case something goes wrong with one of them. The last thing I want to do is blowing up my speakers. For the FIR filters I'm building I provide a first step "master gain -8dB" in the pipeline to create some headroom.
The corrections are very limited... The only corrections I'm attacking with more power is the room mode, I'm using a HighPass at 35Hz with a Q=0,707 (Butterworth) and above that a notch at 28,8 Hz -12dB Q=7,23 to knock it completely down.
With the elimination of the room mode everything is much better and coherent
I'm eyeballing for some good Eigentakt based amplifiers as end-game amplification, was thinking of Boxem Arthur series mono blocks.
And maybe afterwards if needed a pre-amp to change the signature slightly, I do like the Accuphase sound but not their price

 

[Audiolab800]

I would search the reviews for the three important stuff.
No load dependency down to 2-3 Ohm if possible
20Hz-20kHz FR with no roll off at the audible spectrum
No Power vs Frequency dependency

The later is a newer test Amir does but you tell by the example:


View attachment 498782

276W max power at 1kHz/4 Ohm


View attachment 498783

Only 185W max power at 40Hz/4 Ohm

Happy hunting!

Indeed the ideal voltage source, keeping the same voltage bij changing load. Good amps double from 8Ω to 4Ω and sometimes to 2Ω. Some Accuphase class A amps will double up to 1Ω....

 

[Audiolab800]

It’s funny how everyone ignores the actual goal the OP has:

If you’re chasing better sound, then changing amps is usually a poor investment.

The OP already has DSP functionality with CamilaDSP, uses REW. So I assume measurement mic is also present.

I bet the very best investment can be totally for free: just post the measurements and have a few people look at them and suggest some EQ optimizations.

You may also try to apply these just for fun: https://www.spinorama.org/speakers/Bowers & Wilkins 803 D3/Bowers & Wilkins/index_vendor.html

See if you like the speaker when it’s much more linear.

I'm not chasing a flat frequency response but I'm trying to calm down the room modes I have. I'm struggling with +/- 30Hz on some places in the room this is very boomy, the spectrum is showing mare that 800ms in this region. So I defined a high-Pass at 35Hz with Q=0,707 and an extra notch filter -12dB at 28,4Hz Q=7,23
Now the 800ms has tamed down to 400ms and the complete spectrum is sounding much better now. I don't need that < 35Hz region for music.
My corrections (FIR) only go as far as 300Hz, the rest I leave as it is, it is the signature of the speaker in the room. I also placed acoustic panels at the from wall behind the speakers. This is as far as I can goi... (WAF you know)

 

[Svend P]

I do like the Accuphase sound but not their price

Accuphase does not have a sound. They measure ruler flat.

 

[dualazmak]

Accuphase C-3900S + two (or four) of Accuphase A-300

I was just joking in my above post #15.

Now, I am rather serious...
Implementation of proper DSP software (XO/EQ/GroupDelay/Gain/Phase/Polarity, etc.) in upstream digital domain (which you already have?!) plus room acoustic treatments would be my first suggestion.

If you can directly drive woofers, midranges, tweeters by individual set of pre-amplifier + power-amplifier (or integrated-amplifier) in multichannel multi-SP-driver multi-amplifier fully-active configuration (i.e. eliminating/bypassing all the passive LCR XO network) using multi-channel DAC (like OKTO DAC8PRO), you can select each of the three amplifiers in a nice policy of "right-person-in-right-place". For midrange and tweeter you do not need powerful amplifier but you need small (or medium) power HiFi excellent amplifier of nice SINAD like Class-A ones, e.g. ref. here.

Spoiler

- Even Greg Timbers uses "reasonable and budget" Pioneer Elite A-20 for compression drivers (super tweeters) in his extraordinary expensive multichannel stereo system with JBL Everest DD67000 which he himself designed and developed: #435

If you would be interested in such direction, my approach and latest system setup (ref. #931 and #1,009 on my project thread) wound be also of your reference.

Spoiler

In my post #931, I wrote;
Here in this post, please let me emphasize again about the pros and merits of relative gain (i.e. tone) control not only in digital domain but also in analog domain using pre-amplifiers or integrated-amplifiers (in my setup). I recently wrote again in my post #56 on a remote thread like these;
Yes, as for safe and flexible tone controls (or I can say "relative gain controls among the multiple SP drivers"), my stance (policy) at least, is that we are encouraged to utilize the "best combination" of "DSP configuration in digital domain" and "analog domain tone controls using HiFi-grade preamplifiers and/or integrated amplifiers".

We need to note (and to respect for) that analog domain tone controls (relative gain controls among the multiple SP drivers) give no effect nor influence at all on the upstream DSP configuration (XO/EQ/Gain/Phase/Polarity/Group-Delay). I believe that this is a great merit of flexible tone controls in analog domain. We know well, on the other hand, in case if we would like to do the "tone/gain controls" only within DSP configurations, such DSP gain controls always affect more-or-less on "XO" "EQ" "phase" and "delay" of the DSP settings which will leads you to possible endless DSP tuning spirals every time; within DSP configurations, XO EQ Gain Phase and Delay are always not independent with each other, but they are always interdependent/on-interaction.

Just for your possible reference, my DSP-based multichannel multi-SP-driver multi-amplifier active system has flexible and safe analog level on-the-fly relative gain controls (in addition to upstream on-the-fly DSP gain controls) for L&R subwoofers, woofers, midrange-squawkers, tweeters, and super-tweeters, all independently and remotely. My post here shows you a typical example case for such safe and flexible on-the-fly analog-level tone controls. This my post (as well as this post) would be also of your interest.

Of course, I know well that I (we) can also perform such relative gain control using DAC8PRO’s 8-channel output gain controllers. I do not like, however, to change the DAC8PRO’s output levels frequently on-the-fly (while listening to music) due to safety and inconvenience concerns; I like to keep DAC8PRO’s analog out gain level always at constant -4 dB which should remain to be usually “untouchable” in my case.

One of the very unique aspects/features of my multichannel audio rig is that I fully utilize four HiFi-grade “integrated amplifiers” plus L&R active subwoofers, each of them have its own gain (volume) controller for safe and flexible relative gain (tone) control in analog domain even on-the-fly i.e. while listening to music.

In this perspective, my posts #438 and #643 should also give you better understandings. Furthermore, my posts #317(remote thread), #313(remote thread) would be also of your reference and interest.

 

[Chrispy]

I'm in search for a good power amplifier to power my 802D3 speakers. I'm streaming music using USB to my DAC (Topping DX9) and powering some amplifiers...
Via pre-out -> Fosi V3 mono (with unexpected good results)
Via fixed-out -> Accuphase E-470 | Primaluna Prologue Premium

What I'm looking for is a power amplifier driving the speakers very well even on low volumes, ik like tight strong low and fluid midrange with some sparkle at the top but not too much
I was looking for class A amplifiers of maybe good class D (or GanFed)...

Some experiences and or recommendations?

THX in advance

KInd Regards

Define low volume and at what distance from speakers....

Maybe eq, positioning, room are more what should be worked on than amp....while not the most powerful amps seems they should be sufficient at low volume.

 

[Everett T]

Define low volume and at what distance from speakers....

Maybe eq, positioning, room are more what should be worked on than amp....while not the most powerful amps seems they should be sufficient at low volume.

I certainly wouldn't be buying a speaker of the "caliber" of the 802s to be concerned with low volume. It's not a speaker id buy but if I did I'd be for critical listening.

 

[Audiolab800]

Accuphase does not have a sound. They measure ruler flat.

Is it so... maybe their per-amps are doing something or I must be biased... who knows
never the less these amps are build to last and to me good looking but too expensive like other well known brands
That is the reason I have the Boxem Arthur amplifiers on the radar, good power, no heat and auto sensing signals at 1/10 of the Accuphase prices.

Kan you measure how they sound? Just curious how that will take place ...

 

[voodooless]

Kan you measure how they sound? Just curious how that will take place ...

Yes! We can compare various amps by measurement. Below audibility thresholds, amps will simply sound the same. This has been verified time and time again. There is no magic here.

We can even run a null test where we subtract signals from two amps, and then you can listen to the resulting signal, which will usually be inaudible at normal listening levels.

It’s quite simple: frequency response deviations are by far the easiest to spot. Then IM distortion, and finally harmonic distortion. But even at 0.1% THD, most people will have an exceedingly hard time hearing distortion. As far frequency response deviations, most amps don’t have any. Some class D amps have them due to the fact that the feedback path does not include the output filter. Even then, it’s hard to spot. The one you’re looking at, is fine, however. It’s an excellent choice.

 

[Svend P]

Kan you measure how they sound?

Yes. If you look at the frequency response of the 802D, you will see why it is not so well regarded on ASR. It has an elevated treble level, which gives what we call showroom sound, meaning it will impress with a sparkling sound where you hear a lot of details, but the overly bright sound gets fatiguing over time. You might like how they sound, and there is nothing wrong with that. But that is why I suggested an amplifier with room correction, so you at least could try a more neutral response.

 

[Chrispy]

Is it so... maybe their per-amps are doing something or I must be biased... who knows
never the less these amps are build to last and to me good looking but too expensive like other well known brands
That is the reason I have the Boxem Arthur amplifiers on the radar, good power, no heat and auto sensing signals at 1/10 of the Accuphase prices.

Kan you measure how they sound? Just curious how that will take place ...

Bias everyone has unless you take steps to eliminate it. "Auditioning" amps the way you do it is just not a good way to go about it.

 

[Head_Unit]

Indeed the ideal voltage source, keeping the same voltage bij changing load. Good amps double from 8Ω to 4Ω and sometimes to 2Ω. Some Accuphase class A amps will double up to 1Ω....

Actually that never* happens. They are under-rated at the higher impedances to give the appearance of doubling but if you measure at the actual clipping point it is not so. But at least the claim shows some cognizance on the manufacturer's part, and if they rate down to 2Ω 1Ω it shows confidence.
EDIT: not doubling power does not indicate an amp is not an ideal voltage source within its output zone, it could be quite invariant for that, but simply be running out of current.

*OK, I have counted 4 exceptions so far: Devialet Expert 140 Pro integrated; PS Audio Stellar M700 and M1200 monoblocks, and I forget the other two. Oh and the Aiyima A80 as measured by Amir, good on them!

 

[Audiolab800]

Define low volume and at what distance from speakers....

Maybe eq, positioning, room are more what should be worked on than amp....while not the most powerful amps seems they should be sufficient at low volume.

Low volumes are below 75dB and I'm at 3 something meters from the speakers...
But sometimes every now and then I like to push the speakers a bit, and at those moments these come alive...

 

[Audiolab800]

Buying a different amp to get a better sound from the same speaker is like buying a faster car to spend less time in a traffic jam.
Complete nonsense if the amp you use right now is not brocken, unstable or non quality...

You are chasing a ghost and any high end dealer will be happy to help you to do this. By buying a more expensive amp from his shops shelves of course.
Once you have one of the SOTA amps of today, which even may be a 50-200$ Fosi, Aiyima, Toping or any other TPA3255 powered "cheap" thingy, preferable the 2 Ohm stable mono versions, you are done.

This is a sad truth. Sure if you own heavy, expensive, boutique amps, that will be very offending to you. That would be the result from objective listening, which sure is not your thing.
If you like the illusion that more money could buy you a better sound from your speakers, live it. You harm no one, except for your finances, push the economy and sure, looks matter, too.
Compromise: Get a good looking amp, empty it from all electrical parts and put two mono chip amps inside plus two bricks. Thats it, the best sounding, heavy amp you will ever own.

I did blind testing between the Fosi V3's and the Accuphase (volume matched) and surprisingly there was very little difference, why are you claiming that objective listening is not my thing? Where did you get that information from?
I do measurements and I also use EQ (CamillaDSP FIR & IIR) and try to be as objective as I can, but sorry if I'm not a pro at that like you probably are.

 

[Chrispy]

Low volumes are below 75dB and I'm at 3 something meters from the speakers...
But sometimes every now and then I like to push the speakers a bit, and at those moments these come alive...

So 75dB is average or peak? And when you push it?

 

[Audiolab800]

So 75dB is average or peak? And when you push it?

Average round 65 with peaks 75...I don't measure evrerytime... And to be honest when I push I don't measure, I'm guessing 90db for very small periode of time

 

[Chrispy]

Average round 65 with peaks 75...I don't measure evrerytime... And to be honest when I push I don't measure, I'm guessing 90db for very small periode of time

Hard to imagine your current amps aren't up to that....