Benefits of using expensive DACs

[kemmler3D]

Lots of parallels to the audiophool world for sure. Proof wouldn't matter.

My view on this: It's something that we evidence-first type people struggle to understand... belief is often driven primarily by factors other than evidence, even totally orthogonal to evidence. And when belief crystalizes into faith, the belief gets stronger in the face of disconfirming evidence, not weaker.

I see "faith" in these contexts as a component of self-image as a good person, the degree of your goodness depends on how durable your beliefs are regardless of evidentiary circumstances. It has very little to do with whether something is actually true. You could describe a small subset of hardcore subjectivist audiophiles this way.

In situations where debates over fact become "tribal" and faith is involved, you can have surprising outcomes, like scientists who believe in creationism, otherwise smart people who believe in flat earth, and ... Rob Watts.

 

[Imsjry]

Ever tried to do this when you aren't aware of which DAC is playing? In other words, it's your eyes and ears you are relying on, not just your ears if you aren't using basic controls.



They can, but generally don't. Making comparisons without controlling for bias isn't going to give you results that are terribly meaningful. You seem to be completely dismissing the idea that the differences you are hearing may have nothing to do with the sound waves hitting your ear.

If you've never actually gone through the hassle of setting up a 'controlled' listening test, where levels are matched by voltmeter, filters are matched as closely as possible, and you can't peek to know which is playing, it may be more eye opening than the hours of repetitive debate that many seem to prefer.

We get the incredulity...many of us have been there, but rather than dismiss it all maybe give it a whirl.

"Ever tried to do this when you aren't aware of which DAC is playing?"
I'm sure this group will disagree with my method but yes, always. I have my wife swap cables/inputs playing the same track and not tell me which one is playing. I always use the same five tracks (for any new gear) and make notes as a listed to each. I specifically listen to how realistic I feel cymbals, stand up bass, and strings sound as well as listening for the space between the instruments. Those are the audible areas that for me, determine what sounds "good". Every different DAC I've tried has had specific audible differences in those areas. Is that found in measurements? The output components? The DAC chips? My power cable? Too many factors in play so all I can trust are my ears.

 

[antcollinet]

"Ever tried to do this when you aren't aware of which DAC is playing?"
I'm sure this group will disagree with my method but yes, always. I have my wife swap cables/inputs playing the same track and not tell me which one is playing. I always use the same five tracks (for any new gear) and make notes as a listed to each. I specifically listen to how realistic I feel cymbals, stand up bass, and strings sound as well as listening for the space between the instruments. Those are the audible areas that for me, determine what sounds "good". Every different DAC I've tried has had specific audible differences in those areas. Is that found in measurements? The output components? The DAC chips? My power cable? Too many factors in play so all I can trust are my ears.

How (and how accurately) do you level match in these comparisons? Can you see your wife and her body language when she is swapping cables? Do you have any interaction with her?

 

[pablolie]

"Ever tried to do this when you aren't aware of which DAC is playing?"
I'm sure this group will disagree with my method but yes, always. I have my wife swap cables/inputs playing the same track and not tell me which one is playing. I always use the same five tracks (for any new gear) and make notes as a listed to each. I specifically listen to how realistic I feel cymbals, stand up bass, and strings sound as well as listening for the space between the instruments. Those are the audible areas that for me, determine what sounds "good". Every different DAC I've tried has had specific audible differences in those areas. Is that found in measurements? The output components? The DAC chips? My power cable? Too many factors in play so all I can trust are my ears.

You Gentlemen are so lucky to have such obedient SOs... If I told my GF to sit there swapping cables for me, her reply would probably be censored out of any family channel. :-D

For myself, when I have done such comparisons with halfway competent gear (which by the way I hate to do), my goal is to *not* hear differences - not to establish *what* sounds better. Years ago, when I got both a NAD M22 and a Benchmark AHB2 to try to establish which one I liked better, I established it had all been a giant waste of time. Ever since, I just make sure I enjoy the music - that's the goal. I haven't tried a new piece of gear in my system in 6 years or so. Only new piece of gear has been my home office audio system (DAC+Headphone Amp and new Headphones), and that was like 2 years ago or so. I have zero plans to "improve" anything I have.

As to the benefits of anything audio with a hefty price tag - hey if you have the $$$ and you like it and it sounds fantastic to *you*, it's nobody else's business. I haven't asked for approval for anything in life since I turned 18. That goes for anything - cars, motorcycles, watches, shoes, suits, etc etc... every personal purchase has an element of irrationality to it.

 

[Killingbeans]

Every different DAC I've tried has had specific audible differences in those areas. Is that found in measurements?

Yes. There's always the risk of one or more of the DACs being badly designed, but it will be glaringly obvious in measurements.

Or it's found in the test setup.

Making your wife swap things is a good start, but it still makes you susceptible to the Clever Hans effect.

It's also extremely important that you do proper level matching when doing these kind of comparisons, otherwise the results will be worthless.

Besides, statistical significance is also important. One correct guess is just a coin flip. 8 out 10 correct guesses in a row is way more telling.

The output components? The DAC chips?

Not very likely. Ridiculous choices of reconstructions filters and/or grossly incompetent engineering is the only two things I can think of.

My power cable?

Definitely not. The "sound" of power cables belongs in the deepest end of the snake-oil pool.

 

[ahofer]

It’s insanity really.

"insanity", "silliest thing I've ever heard". You seem to be able to dish it out, but still complaining about rudeness?


hmmm

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[ahofer]

You Gentlemen are so lucky to have such obedient SOs... If I told my GF to sit there swapping cables for me, her reply would probably be censored out of any family channel. :-D

I know. My son, the engineer, was really annoyed at the pointlessness of the burdensome amp swapping procedure I asked him to help with.

 

[ahofer]

"Ever tried to do this when you aren't aware of which DAC is playing?"
I'm sure this group will disagree with my method but yes, always. I have my wife swap cables/inputs playing the same track and not tell me which one is playing. I always use the same five tracks (for any new gear) and make notes as a listed to each. I specifically listen to how realistic I feel cymbals, stand up bass, and strings sound as well as listening for the space between the instruments. Those are the audible areas that for me, determine what sounds "good". Every different DAC I've tried has had specific audible differences in those areas. Is that found in measurements? The output components? The DAC chips? My power cable? Too many factors in play so all I can trust are my ears.

Alan Shaw, Harbeth:

We have been drawing attention….to the absolute necessity to separate the quantitative judgement of audio from the qualitative judgement by removing loudness as a bias. It has been ignored, and the audiophile business carrys on its own merry way. Those who work in sound professionally know that this is lesson 1 semester 1 in audiology: the very core of the science. So we have given up trying to educate on this point, as every audio engineer has eventually done over the last half century, as the usual audiophile has an emotional need which cannot be reached by logic, reasoning and science.

If you don't level match, the test isn't a test of the DAC. Higher volume sounds better most of the time, but even 0.1db can sound different. As many of us have said before in this thread (btw, maybe this should be moved to the DAC Sound Signature thread at this point), the most likely causes of hearing a difference between transparent DACs are 1)level mismatch 2) your brain enhancing/altering the signal as it is perceived by you.

And yes, everything audible can be easily measured because a) there is only amplitude/pressure and frequency/time* and b)the instruments are way more sensitive to both of those things than our ears. Not every manufacturer/reviewer runs enough tests (understatement), but there exists a test that will reveal all audible phenomena.

*phase, soundstage, dynamics, etc., these are all byproducts of these ingredients, sometimes across channels. Slam, Pace, PRAT, SPLAT, Air, etc. have no consistent definition and are used to muddy the waters.

 

[MatrixS2000]

Every different DAC I've tried has had specific audible differences in those areas. Is that found in measurements? The output components? The DAC chips? My power cable? Too many factors in play so all I can trust are my ears.

Of course they are found in the measurements if they are there. If they were not found in the measurements, how could you be hearing them? What magical device captured them and put them in the recordings if they can’t be measured?

My power cable?

No.

Too many factors in play so all I can trust are my ears.

No your ears are not fine measurement devices. None of our senses are reliable.

 

[Imsjry]

Alan Shaw, Harbeth:


If you don't level match, the test isn't a test of the DAC.

The streaming device feeding each Dac is on fixed output (no EQ) so usually there aren't volume discrepancies between Dacs when playing the same tracks between them. But the point is very well taken and do my best to account for it if Dac A seems to have a higher output level than Dac B.

 

[VientoB]

I get it, in a way. At first it can seem ridiculous to think that your own senses are unreliable and that your brain may be tricking you. Sometimes, it takes some serious learning and/or self-reflection and/or trying double-blind level-matched testing for yourself in order to see just how easily our hearing can be fooled.

Even then some people start blaming blind tests rather than their brains. Some start saying instantaneous switching makes it harder. I've seen some people say they prefer to wait a while between listens.

 

[solderdude]

FYI I have the original Pontus II, not the 12th. And I've listened it against many other DACs and my ears tell me I prefer it's "sound" (or whatever the science is) to every other I've tried. My only point was that tells me DACs do and can indeed "sound" different from each other. Apologies if I mistook many of the posts here as people stating otherwise. Everyone just enjoy the best sound you can find in your space with your ears and happy holidays!

Nothing wrong with prefering rolled-off treble. (which, technically it basically does + generating loads of ultrasonic crap that when the system is OK won't be audible.

Anyone should buy and use what they like/prefer.

And indeed no one here thinks all DACs sound the same. There is plenty technical evidence they don't.

Filterless DACs are by definition 'broken' in design. Fortunately our ears do not perceive it that way.

 

[VientoB]

The streaming device feeding each Dac is on fixed output (no EQ) so usually there aren't volume discrepancies between Dacs when playing the same tracks between them. But the point is very well taken and do my best to account for it if Dac A seems to have a higher output level than Dac B.

No that's just wrong on the most basic level. DAC output voltages vary.

 

[ahofer]

No that's just wrong on the most basic level. DAC output voltages vary.

The huge output of some of the Chord DACs always comes to mind. Sneaky.

 

[MatrixS2000]

No that's just wrong on the most basic level. DAC output voltages vary.

And some manufacturers even tell you that they are messing around with the FR in the release notes of their firmware upgrades. So again, it wasn’t an improvement to the hardware, they changed the FR of the DAC. That will definitely come out in measurements. Yet most don’t bother reading or digesting what those notes are telling you.

 

[Robin L]

Filterless DACs are by definition 'broken' in design. Fortunately our ears do not perceive it that way.

I reset the laptop so my Topping E30 would playback at 24/192 and disabled the antialiasing filter. I know I can't hear the difference when playing back Tidal's Hi-Rez feeds, but it feels good knowing I'm getting my money's worth and looking at the display on the DAC reading 192.0.

I'm pretty sure I can't hear anything over 13 kHz anyway.

 

[pablolie]

I reset the laptop so my Topping E30 would playback at 24/192 and disabled the antialiasing filter. I know I can't hear the difference when playing back Tidal's Hi-Rez feeds, but it feels good knowing I'm getting my money's worth and looking at the display on the DAC reading 192.0.

I'm pretty sure I can't hear anything over 13 kHz anyway.

Indeed. To me that's a bit of a dichotomy on this very website - the quest for perfect measurements within a thousandth' degree is "scientific" since it's quantifiable, but we often fail to acknowledge how utterly meaningless those differences become after a certain point that we probably reached long ago. And of course linearity has to be there from 20--20,000 Hz (some have even claimed 5-50k would be so much better)... which could be easily called unscientific considering the limitations of our ears and our typical listening environments.

I get my ears tested, and know I can still hear to 16.5kHz. That said, as an experiment I have cut off both lower and higher frequencies, and the difference when listening to music is pretty imperceptible and insignificant, at least with the music I listen to (no electronica FX). It doesn't really impact perfectly satisfactory "fidelity".

Which, going back to the title topic, *is* reliant, at least IMO: I'd probably gain more "listening" joy when looking at a piece of audio jewelry I like (taste is a personal matter) than by adding a new, ordinary looking device that delivers on an extra 1dB of SINAD and 0.0025% of THD+N... :-/

 

[Imsjry]

No that's just wrong on the most basic level. DAC output voltages vary.

Ok Professor. What did I type that was "wrong on the most basic level?" Yes, I realize dacs and audio devices can have different output voltages which I acknowledged in my post.

 

[Jimbob54]

"insanity", "silliest thing I've ever heard". You seem to be able to dish it out, but still complaining about rudeness?


hmmm

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Some of that looks like it's been lifted from a shonen manga (all about levelling/powering up for those that aren't familiar )

"According to the vendor, this latest version of the Pontus, the Gen 15, has been upgraded to Venus II-12th level"

 

[VientoB]

Ok Professor. What did I type that was "wrong on the most basic level?" Yes, I realize dacs and audio devices can have different output voltages which I acknowledged in my post.

I dont agree that you did. Read the sentences I quoted again.