• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Benchmark LA4 vs Topping Pre90 - Listening impression

DSJR

Major Contributor
Joined
Jan 27, 2020
Messages
3,314
Likes
4,427
Location
Suffolk Coastal, UK
'Revealing' in my experience usually means an upper mid-lower top response lift (combined with some band limiting), or higher odd order distortion there. In speakers it's usually an outright response anomaly, often deliberately engineered in! The rest is often eye-fi placebo (I'm not being rude, honestly chaps).

Dac's are a commodity and these days, I'd politely suggest that the better ones should be chosen on facilities, availability and after-care should something go wrong. I'd take Benchmark and RME as an absolute given myself for top of the tree performance, and be very careful about long term service when looking at less expensive products (I for one can't afford to chuck stuff out and nearly wept when I had to take our good working CRT tellies to the recycling centre locally when none of the charity shops wanted them - yes, I'm a sentimental idiot who likes his years' worth out of stuff like this)
 

Kal Rubinson

Master Contributor
Industry Insider
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 23, 2016
Messages
5,273
Likes
9,790
Location
NYC
I agree with this about 99%. Sometimes if you get a really revealing piece of high end gear, it may make your system sound too sharp/harsh for your tastes
So, instead of buying "a really revealing piece of high end gear," it might be more effective and satisfying to replace the resident "bottleneck" component.
 

delta76

Major Contributor
Joined
Nov 27, 2021
Messages
1,614
Likes
2,452
If you want gear that doesn’t color the sound at all, take a close look at the high scoring ASR gear. I’m no engineer but I like to test gear in my listening room. When I did that with the Topping Pre90 versus the McIntosh and Audio Research, the Mc and AR sounded much better. The Topping sounded thin. Maybe that’s because it wasn’t adding anything to the music. I gave it a long listen over 2-3 months and every time the other two won out. The Topping Pre90 did sound good, though. I’d use it if the other two didn’t sound better. If you want new equipment, it’s hard to beat at its price point. I would look into the Schiitt Freya as another alternative around the same price as the Pre90.
Isn’t that the job for an equalizer. If the music was recorded flat, it should sound flat through the preamp, no?
 

Gorgonzola

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 27, 2021
Messages
1,017
Likes
1,398
Location
Southern Ontario
If you want gear that doesn’t color the sound at all, take a close look at the high scoring ASR gear. I’m no engineer but I like to test gear in my listening room. When I did that with the Topping Pre90 versus the McIntosh and Audio Research, the Mc and AR sounded much better. The Topping sounded thin. Maybe that’s because it wasn’t adding anything to the music. I gave it a long listen over 2-3 months and every time the other two won out. The Topping Pre90 did sound good, though. I’d use it if the other two didn’t sound better. If you want new equipment, it’s hard to beat at its price point. I would look into the Schiitt Freya as another alternative around the same price as the Pre90.
I would venture to say the underlying reason you like the Mac and ARC better than the Topping Pre90 is that either of the former add a bit of 2nd and/or 3rd order distortion to the sound.

Don't feel bad ;) for preferring that slight added distortion: many people do. Typically the sound is a bit warmer and fuller which can be pleasant.

By the way, it would be interesting if you could tell us the McIntosh and Audio Research models you were comparing. In particular, Mac makes both tube and solid state models which are likely to sound a bit different.

For a time I had the Schiit Freya +, (tube). Tube mode had the warmer, fuller sound but lost a bit of detail and dynamics vs. Passive mode; personally I preferred the latter but various reviewers have not.
 

BDWoody

Chief Cat Herder
Moderator
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 9, 2019
Messages
6,948
Likes
22,625
Location
Mid-Atlantic, USA. (Maryland)
. I’m no engineer but I like to test gear in my listening room.

Nothing wrong with that, but if you aren't using controls, you aren't getting results that are as meaningful as you may want when you get to this level of accuracy/fidelity/competence.

 
Joined
Jan 11, 2022
Messages
42
Likes
29
I bought a Topping Pre90 and I'm sending it back today. I didn't like it at all. That says something about a component which I was certain wouldn't color the sound at all. Maybe my SMSL SU-9n doesn't play with low input impedances but it sure sounds a lot better plugged directly into the power amp (with Roon DSP volume) than with the Pre90. I'm VERY confused by that....
 

Sokel

Master Contributor
Joined
Sep 8, 2021
Messages
5,844
Likes
5,783
If you want gear that doesn’t color the sound at all, take a close look at the high scoring ASR gear.
Doesn't color under what conditions?
In case of amps high score is not enough,one must take his power needs,controls,connections,etc into account.
 

Turcoda

Member
Joined
Aug 29, 2021
Messages
72
Likes
41
I bought a Topping Pre90 and I'm sending it back today. I didn't like it at all. That says something about a component which I was certain wouldn't color the sound at all. Maybe my SMSL SU-9n doesn't play with low input impedances but it sure sounds a lot better plugged directly into the power amp (with Roon DSP volume) than with the Pre90. I'm VERY confused by that....

Im happy with my discrete pre90, but i never took the time to AB it. Can i ask what it is that is colored by it? I'm liking that this will serve me as a headphone amp in the future rather than just a preamp.
 
Joined
Jan 11, 2022
Messages
42
Likes
29
Im happy with my discrete pre90, but i never took the time to AB it. Can i ask what it is that is colored by it? I'm liking that this will serve me as a headphone amp in the future rather than just a preamp.
Bass seems rolled off, overall dynamics lower than without the Pre90. It sounds small, flat and boxed in with the Pre90 in between. It must be the low input impedance, right? I'm also getting -3dB at the output compared to the DAC output...

Mind you I don't have a double blind setup and all findings are purely anecdotal and probably biased.
 

maudio

Member
Joined
Feb 9, 2022
Messages
54
Likes
22
Bass seems rolled off, overall dynamics lower than without the Pre90. It sounds small, flat and boxed in with the Pre90 in between. It must be the low input impedance, right? I'm also getting -3dB at the output compared to the DAC output...

Mind you I don't have a double blind setup and all findings are purely anecdotal and probably biased.
Thats xactly what others reported, who also had impedance mismatch. Less dynamics, less bass..it's the price you pay!
 

Turcoda

Member
Joined
Aug 29, 2021
Messages
72
Likes
41
Bass seems rolled off, overall dynamics lower than without the Pre90. It sounds small, flat and boxed in with the Pre90 in between. It must be the low input impedance, right? I'm also getting -3dB at the output compared to the DAC output...

Mind you I don't have a double blind setup and all findings are purely anecdotal and probably biased.
I didn't know about the impedance mismatch thing. I used to think the coloration of the topping stuff was that it would be overly analytical and less dynamic. I dunno if my impedance is matched at all. I would definitely suggest going through the lengths of blind testing. Im going to attempt removing it from my chain today and seeing if i notice a difference. I suspect I won't. Even if it's slightly worse, Im happy i saved money over the HPA4. Im just not sure it was worth buying it over the Freya S yet. I have both here, but I think I'll just sell one before ABing properly. My time is worth more to me these days. A proper test is too difficult for me to run.
 

formdissolve

Senior Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Jul 19, 2019
Messages
363
Likes
309
Location
USA
PRE90 Input Impedance:
Balanced - ~2k ohms
Unbalanced Single Ended - ~10k ohms

Putting this here for reference. These were the numbers reported by the designer of the unit at Topping and are the same for A90/A90D.
 

linger63

Active Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2021
Messages
103
Likes
73
Location
Australia
PRE90 Input Impedance:
Balanced - ~2k ohms
Unbalanced Single Ended - ~10k ohms

Putting this here for reference. These were the numbers reported by the designer of the unit at Topping and are the same for A90/A90D.

For anyone interested.
I am using a Gustard X26Pro DAC with an XLR output impedance of 100 ohms connected to my Topping Pre90.
This gives me an impedance ratio of 20:1
I am very happy with the result.
I believe you need to have at least a 10:1 ratio.
 

Carl1000

New Member
Joined
Oct 9, 2022
Messages
3
Likes
1
Same result here with a new Pre90, sound with it in the chain is thiner, it DOES change the sound, no doubt. Tested with tube amp, class D and Class A also. Listening with reference speakers and cabling. Looking for another reasonable cost good solid state preamp. It's being returned to shop.
 

misterdog

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Dec 7, 2018
Messages
503
Likes
389
Mine changed the 'sound' of my system - it made it more transparent. :)

SMSL M400 > Pre 90 > Benchmark AHB2 > fully tricked out Quad 989 ESL's in bespoke steel frames.
 

Abester

New Member
Joined
Dec 16, 2022
Messages
1
Likes
3
I would take OP opinions with gigantic grain of salt, after all none of his listening was with ears only (blind), there is no evidence of any difference between those devices and there should be none.
I had the Topping Pre90 and still own the Benchmark LA4. The Benchmark is smoother and overall more pleasing to the ear in my experience. As an aside, the Topping Pre90 has a a very finicky and frustrating remote while the Benchmark is a complete pleasure to use. Just my 2-cents having owned both products.
 

SoulsHarbor

New Member
Joined
Mar 20, 2022
Messages
4
Likes
1
So, instead of buying "a really revealing piece of high end gear," it might be more effective and satisfying to replace the resident "bottleneck" component.
Sir, would you kindly comment whether the amplifiers you used for your Topping review were fully balanced? I find it interesting that the only two positive comments in this thread were using truly balanced amplifiers. My only objective experience is using a Qudelix headphone DAC and the new Pro-Ject turntable and phonostage which both have fully balanced options. Using the Qudelix enables the easiest comparison as listening in fully balanced mode vs. single ended gives a dramatic sound difference. Could someone running the Topping into a single ended amplifier be accountable for the negative feedback? There is a Benchmark review where the reviewer’s conclusion is that it is too good because of the low noise floor. He concluded that the amp revealed the weeknesses in the rest of his system. (Tubes) Could that be what’s happening here?
 

jae

Major Contributor
Joined
Dec 2, 2019
Messages
1,208
Likes
1,508
@SoulsHarbor These comparisons/opinions (whether positive or negative), including the OP's post with regards to audibility are effectively useless in reality because none of these comparisons are volume-matched. People are effectively just "swapping" one component out for the other in their chain and then subjectively assessing what is coming out of their speakers/headphones. This is a completely improper way to test gear since depending on factors like output voltage, impedances, amplifier gain etc. the volume of the sound coming out of your speakers will vary. People may try to volume match "by ear" or in rare cases with a sound level meter but none of these are accurate enough to match, and we know from a scientific understanding of human hearing that volume 1-3 dB (or less) can affect the tonal balance of music and how it is interpreted. Louder music almost always sounds better.

The "proper" way to volume match is with devices like a good quality true RMS multimeter, scope, or maybe a calibrated microphone which virtually no one does in these comparisons. And those who understand the science will generally not waste time doing this because they will understand the result will be imperceptible, unless maybe they suspect a component might be misbeaving or performing differently for a specific reason. Better yet, we literally have objective data showing the frequency response of both devices are demonstrably ruler flat and distortion is inaudibly low, so unless there is a problem with one of your other devices in your chain then there should be no difference if the Benchmark and Topping are volume matched- they sound the same. The only reason to buy the Benchmark over the Topping is perhaps maybe you want a professional American-made product with good warranty, maybe you want something larger with a nicer chassis, maybe you want something rackmountacle, maybe you want to match it to other Benchmark gear, maybe you just like the looks of it, maybe you have too much money burning a hole in your pocket. Buy the Topping if you want state of the art performance for a fraction of the price in a compact formfactor (there are other Topping units that perform just as good for even cheaper as well).

What subjective reviews are perhaps good for is comparing the build quality, faults, or usability/user experience of the product, which might be important to a buyer. In your case with Qudelix, it also is measured to sound virtually identical in SE and balanced confirmed by multiple measurements, the major difference is that balanced mode has 4 times the power available allowing you more headroom and higher peak listening volumes, and the ability to get more volume out of harder to drive headphones. So I'm almost certain of your observation of "balanced being clearly better" with the Qudelix is down to higher output volume and nothing else. Meaning if you were using a headphone that is easily powered in SE, playing it at the same volume in balanced will sound identical if you were to match the volumes.

I'd encourage you to watch the ASR youtube channel where Amir talks about a lot of these concepts on video, might be easier to digest than a lot of conflicting or confusing discussions in text.
 

Kal Rubinson

Master Contributor
Industry Insider
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 23, 2016
Messages
5,273
Likes
9,790
Location
NYC
Sir, would you kindly comment whether the amplifiers you used for your Topping review were fully balanced? I
Neither the Benchmark AHB2 nor the NAD C298 are "fully balanced."
 

pma

Major Contributor
Joined
Feb 23, 2019
Messages
4,591
Likes
10,727
Location
Prague
"Fully balanced" (2 separate amplifiers for + and - branch) makes no sense. When talking about truly balanced, it means that the balanced output is floating. One can tie one of the outputs, like OUT-, to GND and the second one, OUT+ automatically jumps to twice voltage. That's how the pro gear was designed, for decades. Consumer audio almost always uses only inverted OUT- with respect to OUT+ and it cannot be shorted to ground.

See my debate with late Tim de Paravicini

BD25F334-5E6B-4AC9-B828-ABA4B05AB9B6.jpeg
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom