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Benchmark AHB2 / Class D Purifi Eigentakt / Mark Levinson 333 - Listening impression & Conclusion

Phorize

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What? :)
(Now I see, I added some clarification to my ramblings.)

Thank goodness for that, for a moment there I thought we were being treated to a large serving of audiophile word salad;)
 

Matias

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What? :)
(Now I see, I added some clarification to my ramblings.)
I think he does not agree/believe in your subjective descriptions.
 

Honken

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What? :)
(Now I see, I added some clarification to my ramblings.)
My old Onkyo A-9155 sounds the same, to my ears, as my Hypex NC400. The difference lies in volume and inputs (the latter plays (way) louder and with a lower noise floor).

I can't tell the difference during normal use.

See my signature for system details, it isn't the most "resolving" system ever.
 

Gorgonzola

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Thanks for sharing.
Curious if you could try playing or streaming SACD Telarc Tchaikovsky 1812 overture and share your experience?
Level match or crank them louder so the contrast is more audible.
I wish I could try that but I don't have the Pass Labs anymore; (as a poor guy I can't afford to keep relatively expensive gear I'm not using).

I don't have that recording either though perhaps I could find it. For my part I would like to recommend a 2-3 of recordings if you happen to have access:
  • Reference Recording's Eiji Oue/Minnesota Orch. recording of Stravinsky's Firebird, Song of the Nightingale, and Right of Spring. This is a most excellent recording.
  • Telarc's Paavo Jarvi/Cincinnati Symphony recording or Berlioz' Symphonie Fantastique. Likewise an excellent SQ album.
  • Naxos' Eder Quartet's Shostakovich's String Quartets. A bit bright on the top end but with a really good amp, the brightness is bearable and the spacious ambience of the recording become evident.
Comparison with recordings with specific defects can also be helpful. IMO, many Classical recordings are overly bright on the top end.
 

mocenigo

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Thank goodness for that, for a moment there I thought we were being treated to a large serving of audiophile word salad;)

I was not trying to treat anybody to a large serving of audiophile word salad. But audible levels of THD or IMD will *add* energy to higher frequencies, and thererefore may explain subjective phenomena like a wider scene and a unstable scene. I do not think this is the case of the AHB2. But some people claim it sounds like shit in comparison to their miniature-wattage DHTs (with humongous linear power supplies) and in fact it may be exactly the opposite (from the point of view of signals correctness).
 
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SIY

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I think he does not agree/believe in your subjective descriptions.
Subjective is fine. Poorly controlled isn’t. I’m still not sure why people use those terms synonymously, but that sort of imprecision unavoidably fuzzes up thinking.
 

mocenigo

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My old Onkyo A-9155 sounds the same, to my ears, as my Hypex NC400. The difference lies in volume and inputs (the latter plays (way) louder and with a lower noise floor).

I can't tell the difference during normal use.

See my signature for system details, it isn't the most "resolving" system ever.

This probably means that they are both used in their "goldilocks" region. After all, Alan Shaw of Harbeth's used to say that two competently designed amplifiers used in their proper (I would add: obviously not the marketed) parameter range would sound indistinguishable with the same speakers.

And I tend to agree.
 

mocenigo

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Subjective is fine. Poorly controlled isn’t. I’m still not sure why people use those terms synonymously, but that sort of imprecision unavoidably fuzzes up thinking.

As I replied to another message, Alan Shaw of Harbeth's use to say that two competently designed amplifiers used in their proper (I would add: obviously not the marketed) parameter range would sound indistinguishable with the same speakers. If however THD and IMD get over a certain threshold there will be audible differences. And even one Db extra loudness in the treble will change how we perceive stage. And since it is signal correlated, the stage won't sound stable. I have observed this. Yes, with my ears, and not blind, but when you feel the instruments moving laterally with some amps and not with others, well, this is quite a (subjective) telltale.
 

Gorgonzola

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In fact, a lot of people expect distortion (even IMD) to present itself as a very unpleasing sonic signature, While this may be the case if it is mostly on the bass, one must understand that the most perceptible distortion is mostly on harmonics (of the difference of the two considered frequencies for the IMD), and therefore it will ADD strength to the signal at higher frequencies. This will obviously ("mathematically") imply two things:
1) increased volume at higher frequencies - and therefore a Purifi module will sound as if treble had been rolled off; and,
2) accordingly, higher separation at the treble, because the added artifacts will be more independent of each other, possibly resulting in a wider image, even though less stable
...
Thank you for sharing your impressions -- don't take the skeptics around hear too seriously: they enjoy mocking and ridiculing subjective impressions.

Something we might agree on is that distortions are not always perceived as such. 2nd and 3rd order harmonics are often perceived as an enhancements, (something known since the Greek philosophers). I feel this particularly true on the top end and/or higher volumes; here tube amps often show increased distortion in this regions which, maybe, leads to the preference of many for that technology.
 

Honken

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This probably means that they are both used in their "goldilocks" region. After all, Alan Shaw of Harbeth's used to say that two competently designed amplifiers used in their proper (I would add: obviously not the marketed) parameter range would sound indistinguishable with the same speakers.

And I tend to agree.
Possibly. I've previously admitted on these forums that the electronic side of the equation isn't my forté so I don't really know how these two compare on a technical level.

But, if you agree with my subjective comparison - why the "word salad" above? To me, a mere consumer, it sounded very definitive/authorative.
 

SIY

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As I replied to another message, Alan Shaw of Harbeth's use to say that two competently designed amplifiers used in their proper (I would add: obviously not the marketed) parameter range would sound indistinguishable with the same speakers. If however THD and IMD get over a certain threshold there will be audible differences. And even one Db extra loudness in the treble will change how we perceive stage. And since it is signal correlated, the stage won't sound stable. I have observed this. Yes, with my ears, and not blind, but when you feel the instruments moving laterally with some amps and not with others, well, this is quite a (subjective) telltale.
IOW, poorly controlled. Sorry, there’s no way around that.
 

DHT 845

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Very common sound characteristic of class D is being lean on male vocals, fast pace and rhythm (but with too nervous and one-note bass).
Some class D amps have a litttle roll-off highest transients (but not every, there are big differences among class D amps in that), narrow stage is standard. And my subjective opinion - boring sound. However what is good, that it is cleaner in HF that many class AB amps (AHB2 is exception).

The difference in "weight" would be even more obvious when comparing some Gryphon Amps to AHB2 and purifi class D... Mark Levinson 333 is ok. but it is not up to the best todays amps....
 

pma

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After all, Alan Shaw of Harbeth's used to say that two competently designed amplifiers used in their proper (I would add: obviously not the marketed) parameter range would sound indistinguishable with the same speakers.

However this is no proof. Only one more anecdotal story so our party may happily continue :).
 

Honken

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Very common sound characteristic of class D is being lean on male vocals, fast pace and rhythm (but with too nervous and one-note bass).
Some class D amps have a litttle roll-off highest transients (but not every, there are big differences among class D amps in that), narrow stage is standard. And my subjective opinion - boring sound. However what is good, that it is cleaner in HF that many class AB amps (AHB2 is exception).

The difference in "weight" would be even more obvious when comparing some Gryphon Amps to AHB2 and purifi class D... Mark Levinson 333 is ok. but it is not up to the best todays amps....
... What?

I've been reading the TPA 3255 and the the MA12070 threads here and I don't get it. What are y'all talking about? What does pace mean in this context? Rhythm?

Why would amplification matter in these regards?! Can anyone point to actual differences in sound, or are you guys trying to convince eachother of your perceived/desired differences? If so, why is this echo chamber not challenged in this forum?

I don't wish to dismiss you outright, but again, I don't get it. Help me understand. What are the differences you hear?
 

SIY

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... What?

I've been reading the TPA 3255 and the the MA12070 threads here and I don't get it. What are y'all talking about? What does pace mean in this context? Rhythm?

Why would amplification matter in these regards?! Can anyone point to actual differences in sound, or are you guys trying to convince eachother of your perceived/desired differences? If so, why is this echo chamber not challenged in this forum?

I don't wish to dismiss you outright, but again, I don't get it. Help me understand. What are the differences you hear?
No controls. Don’t try to make sense of make-believe.
 

DHT 845

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... What?

I've been reading the TPA 3255 and the the MA12070 threads here and I don't get it. What are y'all talking about? What does pace mean in this context? Rhythm?

Why would amplification matter in these regards?! Can anyone point to actual differences in sound, or are you guys trying to convince eachother of your perceived/desired differences? If so, why is this echo chamber not challenged in this forum?

I don't wish to dismiss you outright, but again, I don't get it. Help me understand. What are the differences you hear?

Ok. pace and rhythm or PRAT factor is perceived speed or attack. There are big differences in that among amps. How it is possible? I will explain.
When amp has very high dumping factor it grips the speaker driver firmly, thus bass stops fast and do not go deeper due to inertia (opposite is loose bass, that may go deeper but the accelleration from "the deeper point" takes longer time). Class D is perceided as "fast" (but in fact the rhythm is the same of course, that is only the perception of the character of the bass).
 

audio2design

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I've been reading the TPA 3255 and the the MA12070 threads here and I don't get it. What are y'all talking about? What does pace mean in this context? Rhythm?



See previous thread w.r.t. word salad. They mean pretty much nothing, and things often attributed to amps, and other components end up more a function of speakers/room. Fast bass is a good one. Give me a room with fast decay and a good speaker, and many will say the bass is fast no matter the amp. I am not against subjective opinions, but there is 0 consistency and often qualities are assigned to a particular component that are just outside the realm of reality.
 
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Grotti

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Very common sound characteristic of class D is being lean on male vocals, fast pace and rhythm (but with too nervous and one-note bass).
Some class D amps have a litttle roll-off highest transients (but not every, there are big differences among class D amps in that), narrow stage is standard. And my subjective opinion - boring sound. However what is good, that it is cleaner in HF that many class AB amps (AHB2 is exception).

The difference in "weight" would be even more obvious when comparing some Gryphon Amps to AHB2 and purifi class D... Mark Levinson 333 is ok. but it is not up to the best todays amps....
Oh come on: you can't be serious! This is a list of prejudices which are all overcome. Definitely! I bought a Class D amplifier after 4 decades of Class A/B and I had to overcome this prejudices too. After comparing it with different A/B amps (admittedly sighted though) I found none of my subjective concerns proven. The Amp is based on Hypex modules btw....
 

audio2design

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Ok. pace and rhythm or PRAT factor is perceived speed or attack. There are big differences in that among amps. How it is possible? I will explain.
When amp has very high dumping factor it grips the speaker driver firmly, thus bass stops fast and do not go deeper due to inertia (opposite is loose bass, that may go deeper but the accelleration from "the deeper point" takes longer time). Class D is perceided as "fast" (but in fact the rhythm is the same of course, that is only the perception of the character of the bass).

Except for the most part, that is not nearly as true as you may think it is except if you are comparing most transformer tube amplifiers with typical solid state amplifiers. The amplifier output impedance is just one part of the circuit. The dominating term in that circuit is voice coil resistance. Past a certain damping factor there is virtually no improvement in how fast the woofer stops. For a typical 8 ohm speaker, that comes at about 20 (hence the rule of thumb). Loose bass does not go deeper, there is just more of it, and at a slightly higher frequency.
 
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