Belief vs Science

[digicidal]

I'd prefer eschewing all advice, regardless of source, if it doesn't further well-being and understanding. Elders or not. And tbh elders aren't immune to holding ridiculous ideas. Take a look at some older audiophiles, or older hardline nationalist conservatives, or older religious folks.

Or technology utopianists, celebrity ideologues, the cult of academia, the entirety of so-me pundits, etc. IMO. Naturally no one is immune to holding ridiculous ideas - however, in the context of my post: I think there are likely a few things that those from countries three times as old as ours might have to teach us (certainly in the area of staying a country at least).

I say take the best advice from everyone, and toss out the nonsense that comes along with the rest of their worldviews and ideas. No need to discount individuals in totality, likewise no need to take them for their every word.

I agree... but this is where the problem of "one man's ceiling is another man's floor" comes into play. If you are as sure your ideas are the solution as I am that they are not - with only enough resources and time to follow a single course of action. What then is the path ahead? Naturally this is a gross over-simplification, but I trust you get my point.

 

[Tks]

Or technology utopianists, celebrity ideologues, the cult of academia, the entirety of so-me pundits, etc. IMO. Naturally no one is immune to holding ridiculous ideas - however, in the context of my post: I think there are likely a few things that those from countries three times as old as ours might have to teach us (certainly in the area of staying a country at least).



I agree... but this is where the problem of "one man's ceiling is another man's floor" comes into play. If you are as sure your ideas are the solution as I am that they are not - with only enough resources and time to follow a single course of action. What then is the path ahead? Naturally this is a gross over-simplification, but I trust you get my point.

The commentary about learning from countries many folds older than us here in the US is 101% something I agree with, and goes hand in hand with my cultural commentary. The sort of development and lessons learned throughout such a long period of many trials is definately something that contributes to that sort of maturity and understanding on how to exist as sustainably as a nation/population. So actually I 1001% agree there completely.

As far as the second paragraph, that's where rationality and a scientific approach actually help (this relates my sentiments on why a proper education system needs to exist). Anytime there is a disagreement, just lay down the best case you have for the other person, while he does the same. But again, this is only possible if the two parties are of somewhat equal stature. Otherwise like in some debates, one side is actually presenting and giving a classroom course.. while the other is having to be educated and brought up to speed with things they should have already known about before the debate even started (it's why live debates are mostly entertainment, or a display of wit and proper speaking ability, rather than purely acedemic discourse. Real debates are written ones where each side presents each case, and each side has sometimes days or weeks to present counter evidence). The only problem with those debates is that they're so dry, and very unentertaining for the masses who wanted to see a show...

 

[Wombat]

Verifiable facts separate subjective beliefs and myths from reality. The rest is mainly skewed human self-interest.

 

[digicidal]

Verifiable facts separate subjective beliefs and myths from reality. The rest is mainly skewed human self-interest.

Agreed. Yet it is those subjective beliefs and myths that so often are the primary motivation to pursue many of those avenues in the first place. If it weren't for the fairly irrational (and certainly subjective) appeal of music - it's likely that a tiny fraction of the science we discuss on this forum would be pursued as actively. Obviously where self-interest dominates there will be significant noise as well - but without any at all, many developments might never have been considered.

Without wondering where we came from and why/how we exist... regardless of how irrational the early explanations and beliefs may have been (or continue to be for many) - would we have dedicated as much time/energy/money into studying biology, cosmology, sociology, etc? Certainly some I'm sure - but as much and as quickly as we have - of that, I'm not nearly as sure. I do know that nearly all modern technology has been born of the desire to remove basic requirements of survival - largely in order to pursue things that are not a requirement for it. To our collective benefit, in most cases, though arguably to our detriment in others.

 

[Wombat]

Agreed. Yet it is those subjective beliefs and myths that so often are the primary motivation to pursue many of those avenues in the first place. If it weren't for the fairly irrational (and certainly subjective) appeal of music - it's likely that a tiny fraction of the science we discuss on this forum would be pursued as actively. Obviously where self-interest dominates there will be significant noise as well - but without any at all, many developments might never have been considered.

Without wondering where we came from and why/how we exist... regardless of how irrational the early explanations and beliefs may have been (or continue to be for many) - would we have dedicated as much time/energy/money into studying biology, cosmology, sociology, etc? Certainly some I'm sure - but as much and as quickly as we have - of that, I'm not nearly as sure. I do know that nearly all modern technology has been born of the desire to remove basic requirements of survival - largely in order to pursue things that are not a requirement for it. To our collective benefit, in most cases, though arguably to our detriment in others.

The climate warming proposition is so serious re the future catastrophic affects on mankind that in time we may well have to consider Nuremberg type trials for contribution to 'Crimes against humanity'.

 

[RayDunzl]

What level of contribution will be deemed serious enough by the tribunal to enforce the removal of your footprint?

 

[Wombat]

What level of contribution will be deemed serious enough by the tribunal to enforce the removal of your footprint?

Nuremberg concentrated on the powerful.

 

[RayDunzl]

Nuremberg concentrated on the powerful.

The Supreme Court only takes on exceptional cases, but that won't keep you out of jail for things they wouldn't consider rendering an opinion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Axis_personnel_indicted_for_war_crimes

 

[JJB70]

Im qurius about your opinion regarding SunCell (or Brilliantlight power). They (Dr. mills) have probably the technical solution regarding generating Energy/electricity in abundance basicly for free. I'm following them for around 15 years but see them more as a hoax till now. I found his findings regarding his so called Hydrino (by him explaind as darkmatter) interesting. By changing the orbit of electrons in a lower orbit around the nucleus of a hydrogen atom (so called lower-energy state) he is generating enourmes amount of light (instead of heat) that he can convert by polyvoltic/solar panels to electricity. The known institutes like MIT and others don't want to touch it. https://brilliantlightpower.com/suncell/

This is the first I have heard about this, and I honestly can't offer an opinion either way, sorry.

I know there is a lot of effort going into utilising hydrogen in various forms, as well as gaseous hydrogen there is still a lot of interest in ammonia as a hydrogen carrier, and methanol/methyl-alcohol but it's the first I've heard of this.

The hydrogen economy is another of those things which has been just around the corner all of my life but this time it may happen. The growth of battery electric automobiles has overshadowed the fact that even in automotive there is still steady investment in hydrogen fuel cell EVs.

 

[scott wurcer]

Im qurius about your opinion regarding SunCell (or Brilliantlight power). They (Dr. mills) have probably the technical solution regarding generating Energy/electricity in abundance basicly for free. I'm following them for around 15 years but see them more as a hoax till now. I found his findings regarding his so called Hydrino (by him explaind as darkmatter) interesting. By changing the orbit of electrons in a lower orbit around the nucleus of a hydrogen atom (so called lower-energy state) he is generating enourmes amount of light (instead of heat) that he can convert by polyvoltic/solar panels to electricity. The known institutes like MIT and others don't want to touch it. https://brilliantlightpower.com/suncell/

100% scam, I guarantee. Look up Steorn they went years bilking marks until they folded. I peeked 2000X suns all the time, right.

EDIT - This is related to the Brown's gas fringe science. There has been no repeatable experiment achieved by a single one of the many free energy scams, ever, not one in decades. That has to say something.

 

[RayDunzl]

Im qurius about your opinion regarding SunCell (or Brilliantlight power). They (Dr. mills) have probably the technical solution regarding generating Energy/electricity in abundance basicly for free. I'm following them for around 15 years but see them more as a hoax till now. I found his findings regarding his so called Hydrino (by him explaind as darkmatter) interesting. By changing the orbit of electrons in a lower orbit around the nucleus of a hydrogen atom (so called lower-energy state) he is generating enourmes amount of light (instead of heat) that he can convert by polyvoltic/solar panels to electricity. The known institutes like MIT and others don't want to touch it. https://brilliantlightpower.com/suncell/

In the videos, I don't see anything happen until an enormous amount of heat has been generated.

 

[mansr]

The known institutes like MIT and others don't want to touch it.

That tells you all you need to know.

 

[scott wurcer]

That tells you all you need to know.

At least one of the free energy kooks who mysteriously died was from MIT.

 

[mansr]

At least one of the free energy kooks who mysteriously died was from MIT.

With over 100,000 alumni, it would be very, very remarkable if a few crackpots were not among them.

 

[Sal1950]

Well, I don't care if it rains or freezes,
Long as I got my plastic Jesus
Glued onto the dashboard of my car
---
Goin' 90 but I ain't scary
Cause I got the Virgin Mary
Ssurin me that I won't go to he-ll
---
You can buy him in phosphorescent
Glows in the dark, He's Pink and Pleasant,
Take Him with you when you're travelin'far
---
Thru all trials and tribulations,
We will travel every nation,
With my plastic Jesus I know that I'll go far.

 

[nintendoeats]

I thought that nobody else in the universe had ever heard that song. Like, it was some fever dream that Billy himself didn't remember recording.

 

[RayDunzl]

With my plastic Jesus I know that I'll go far.

Elvis Has Just Left The Building

 

[Tks]

Well, I don't care if it rains or freezes,
Long as I got my plastic Jesus
Glued onto the dashboard of my car
---
Goin' 90 but I ain't scary
Cause I got the Virgin Mary
Ssurin me that I won't go to he-ll
---
You can buy him in phosphorescent
Glows in the dark, He's Pink and Pleasant,
Take Him with you when you're travelin'far
---
Thru all trials and tribulations,
We will travel every nation,
With my plastic Jesus I know that I'll go far.

Idk about the glow in the dark, I’ll ask Amir for confirmation, but the Pink Panther sure is pink and pleasant.

 

[FrantzM]

Hi
We could remove "America" and replace by any country , continent or locale. This post below, is a well articulated point of view. Education remains the number one issue in most societies. America in spite of its enormous wealth has a severe education problem. When you realize how prominent people disdain Science in all its form and come to make policies based on simplistic beliefs, "feelings" and emotions that they aren't even capable of explaining with any rationality ... some even believe the Earth is flat and have the money to try to prove it (Similar in so many ways to how a piece of simple metal, aka speaker or interconnect cables, can have so many wondrous aural properties and cost upward of $50,000 ).. Let's not even go into the more sophisticated notion of "Darwinism" ...

The irony in all that is how many reject Science yet use Science and Technology to disseminate their views ...

Yet , we must believe .. even in Science .. In that sense I don't see "Science" and "Belief" as antithetic.

It goes back to my prior sentiments about culture. It's at the root of all the realities we now have. The value placed on what people aspire to be, and achieve. The extreme tendency to value money and social presence (influence). All these aspects are, is factors that comprise the individualistic culture. It's common in fledgling civilizations or nations, or ones plagued with massive inequity among the social stratus.

When I mentioned starting with solving education, I didn't imply that education was solvable because it's the easiest, or that it's somehow easier because it's outside the realm of influence of the social apparatus of society. Even in high education... For instance in America, in virtually all economic courses, you'd be hard pressed to find any much learning material outside the scope of familiarization that entertains any sort of economic experimentation outside of capitalism. Socialism is spoken of in passing, and it's failures highlighted. The economic theory of Adam Smith and modern day proponents like Alan Greenspan have massive influence of the teaching curriculum.

There is no resource based economic theory, nothing of localized economic adaptation and implementation to suit various sectors of the country. Everything is a one-size-fits-all approach. Which is quite funny because regardless of socialism, communism, capitalism, whatever existing forms of economies are in practice today are ALL complete failures with current realities and requirements for stability. Why? Because every single one relies on cyclical consumption, and perpetual growth. There's just one problem with a system like that - it's completely contrary to the laws of physics.. Unlimited economic growth on a finite planet is a contradiction in terms, and why all current forms of government and economic theory fail spectacularly in the present day (and it shows). Ask any economist how this issue can be rectified, and see PhD's stumble with giving direct answers that aren't a convoluted mess.

So yes, I agree, performance based metrics for educators need to be a thing, and all that good stuff, with enough leeway not to be cancerous in the employment process (no point in being MEGA stringent if we lived in a society already well off, but when we're semi-fucked as we are now, the requirements assuredly need a belt tightening).

The problem I see mostly is the fact that we in America were doing better in the recent past (late fifties, to mid seventies approximately). The fact we can't at LEAST maintain that sort of society for more than a decade (or two at most) is telling of our inadequacies. If we can't solve the education issue, we have almost no hope at that point.

The most pathetic part being we have technology that people in that age never dreamed of, so our capability potential of getting things done is far easier than doing it in the past when things were always logistically slower to get done. Yet we're still failing.

 

[digicidal]

Hi
We could remove "America" and replace by any country , continent or locale. This post below, is a well articulated point of view. Education remains the number one issue in most societies. America in spite of its enormous wealth has a severe education problem. When you realize how prominent people disdain Science in all its form and come to make policies based on simplistic beliefs, "feelings" and emotions that they aren't even capable of explaining with any rationality ... some even believe the Earth is flat and have the money to try to prove it (Similar in so many ways to how a piece of simple metal, aka speaker or interconnect cables, can have so many wondrous aural properties and cost upward of $50,000 ).. Let's not even go into the more sophisticated notion of "Darwinism" ...

The irony in all that is how many reject Science yet use Science and Technology to disseminate their views ...

Yet , we must believe .. even in Science .. In that sense I don't see "Science" and "Belief" as antithetic.

I would argue that we don't have to "believe in science" however... although we do have to potentially believe in the processes/people that we don't have the personal experience or knowledge to fully validate. The whole point of science being that if it does require "belief" - then (at least that specific aspect) isn't actually science yet - though it may be a theory in the process of becoming so.

I would agree with you however, in that many of the proposed applications of science do indeed require belief - blind faith in some cases - as there are many cases where sound science is used as "proof" for all kinds of ridiculous schemes (most of which were never even conceived of by the people involved in the research itself).