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Belief vs Science

Tks

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Not sure why that's so difficult to understand. It's pretty clear to me.

Not sure either why you're unable to answer the question presented multiple times now. I'll take it as a refusal at this point.

If you need exposition, you can read Post #19 if you really want to the full picture on why bills like this are probelmatic.
 

SIY

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If you need exposition, you can read Post #19 if you really want to the full picture on why bills like this are probelmatic.

“Unconvincing” would be an understatement.

The first part of the sentence is pretty clear.

ordinary academic standards of substance and relevance, including any legitimate pedagogical concerns
 

BDWoody

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If you need exposition, you can read Post #19 if you really want the full picture on why bills like this are probelmatic.

That's your view of the full picture. I think people panic about things sometimes when their view of how the world should be is challenged.
 

Tks

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“Unconvincing” would be an understatement.

The first part of the sentence is pretty clear.

Though unconvincing of what, we still don't know because you have still failed to answer the question presented multiple times. You simply make cryptic allusions to what your answer may be, but lack the constitution to give the answer directly to the original question.

To which part are you unconvinced of, and unconvinced of what topic precisely? If the topic has run it's course, simply say so, no need to drag along.

That's your view of the full picture. I think people panic about things sometimes when their view of how the world should be is challenged.

I don't understand why I would be panicking(if that is the implication), this is the basic state of affairs. In post #19 I expand in depth using multiple examples of the logical inconsistency of this bill (as is par for the course for all others like it, and by others, those are to be found in the article I cited in my first post of the topic).

Likewise, I am confused even if the case was, that someone was panicking. What bearing would panic have on the truth value of the statements made?
 

KozmoNaut

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correct, but it must be proven by observation and experiment.

And we have tons of observations on the subject of evolution, which is backed by countless experiments covering endless permutations of hypotheses.

If we take your argument to the extreme, you would have to faithfully recreate the entire origin of life and species 100%, while making detailed observations of every minute detail, to be able to prove evolution happened and the exact moment life arose.

Science doesn't work that way, and you know it.
 

SIY

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ordinary academic standards of substance and relevance, including any legitimate pedagogical concerns

Nothing cryptic there at all. It’s completely clear. Your “examples” aren’t relevant.
 

Tks

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ordinary academic standards of substance and relevance, including any legitimate pedagogical concerns

Nothing cryptic there at all. It’s completely clear. Your “examples” aren’t relevant.

They are direct examples of the sorts of logical and pragmatic contradictions.

All you're doing now is making declaratory statements, meaning - you're just saying something is this or that.

But I see you're unwilling to present even remotely something resembling a charitable discourse. You can have the last word if you care to. Or if you care to address the concerns directly, answer the initial question directly first, and then talk about why my examples "aren't relevant" with demonstration in pertinence to the topics of contention I raised in detail.
 

SIY

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Your examples don’t even remotely satisfy the requirements of ordinary academic standards of substance and relevance. I’m not sure I can put that in shorter, easier-to-comprehend terms.
 

BDWoody

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I don't understand why I would be panicking(if that is the implication), this is the basic state of affairs. In post #19 I expand in depth using multiple examples of the logical inconsistency of this bill (as is par for the course for all others like it, and by others, those are to be found in the article I cited in my first post of the topic).

Likewise, I am confused even if the case was, that someone was panicking. What bearing would panic have on the truth value of the statements made?

Ok, let's change the word panic, and replace it with over-react.

Yes, there is clearly a lack of consistent, thought through logic in these bills. They are often token gestures to placate some group that feels they need placating, and written for purely political purposes, not really to make any difference in any way to anyone other than a very very small group of people.
I've stopped worrying about these kinds of concessions...maybe I've gotten to old to care. When I see a lot of anxious energy being spent on telling me why the sky is now falling and we all need to be worried for our futures because how can we teach kids when they can believe what they want...I just can't get in tune with it to the same extent.

I think this all has a lot more to do with the parents than it does the school systems. I wasn't worried that my kids were going to be infected by some religious student who doesn't believe in evolution. Nor do I really care what grade the religious person got on whatever answers they gave. I'm worried if the teacher doesn't teach the science. If they do that part, I'll take care of the rest.
For the kids who have whatever brand of alternative thinking parents...well, the kids will be exposed to the science anyway in the school, and they can do with that what they will along with their parents.

I'm not saying your concerns and points have no value or merit. I follow the logic. I just am not convinced it is as big a deal as you are.
 

kevinh

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And we have tons of observations on the subject of evolution, which is backed by countless experiments covering endless permutations of hypotheses.

If we take your argument to the extreme, you would have to faithfully recreate the entire origin of life and species 100%, while making detailed observations of every minute detail, to be able to prove evolution happened and the exact moment life arose.

Science doesn't work that way, and you know it.


There are observations on new species?
Do tell, could you provide a link.

adaptation (ie variations in color, smaller groups, dog breeds) is not proof of evolution. Show how species b evolves from species A. Example different # of chromosomes etc.
 

BDWoody

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BDWoody

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Thanks for the link, that is a start. Although That result isn't too suprising.


I grew up a in a very orthodox form of Christianity, where we simply ridiculed the idea of evolution. We had extensive 'arguments' and thought games we would play to convince ourselves that it just couldn't possibly work in some seemingly random fashion as described. God just wouldn't work that way...duh... Anyone who believed in that nonsense is just being deceived by the devil to get them to turn away from God and his magnificence.

To avoid turning this into an unintended treatise on theology and cults, as I proceeded through my education (one of my degree's is in theology actually...which is where I realized what whack jobs these cult leaders were and left) I realized that there was a lot more to the discussion than the far over-simplified arguments I had grown up hearing repeated so often I simply accepted them without real examination.

Moving from committed cult level Christian to Agnostic with a Theology degree over a few years was interesting, and has led me to have an approach where I wanted to prove whatever I could to myself, from then on.

In graduate school, I would make my classmates with engineering degrees a little crazy when I might have needed to ask that extra question about the Stochastic Calculus I needed to understand better than I did, as one of very few Turbo Poets trying to keep up with the Quant Jocks. But once I understood, the world opened up.

Needing to understand it beyond the superficial has served me well in audio as well as in business and life...and I've tried to avoid becoming too cynical along the way. That said...the truth is, there is a lot of total bullshit out there... Everywhere.

Evolution is not bullshit...it's not shaky science...at least not IMNSHO...

I would just encourage you to do the same with evolution as you hopefully do with audio...really try to understand it...not just understand your side of the argument better.

Holy crap, I'm exhausted after all that sharing...

I hope this is taken in the spirit intended...not meant to seem like I am preaching (?) to anyone.
As @Thomas savage said...these can get ugly quick, and if I've jumped the shark, just let me know. Wouldn't be the first time...
 
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Killingbeans

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adaptation (ie variations in color, smaller groups, dog breeds) is not proof of evolution.

Fruit fly mutation foretells 40 million years of evolution

BTW, I'm an atheist, but I try not to be a dick about it. In my mind there's a clear link between religion and high-end audio, and I find the psychological aspect very interesting. It's one of the reasons why I love spending time on ASR. I also understand that talking about religion on a forum is like playing with Azidoazide Azide, so I'll do my best to pick my words carefully :)
 
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Blumlein 88

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I grew up a in a very orthodox form of Christianity, where we simply ridiculed the idea of evolution. We had extensive 'arguments' and thought games we would play to convince ourselves that it just couldn't possibly work in some seemingly random fashion as described God just wouldn't work that way...duh... Anyone who believed in that nonsense is just being deceived by the devil to get them to turn away from God and his magnificence.

To avoid turning this into an unintended treatise on theology and cults, as I proceeded through my education (one of my degree's is in theology actually...which is where I realized what whack jobs these cult leaders were and left) I realized that there was a lot more to the discussion than the far over-simplified arguments I had grown up hearing repeated so often I simply accepted them without real examination.

Moving from committed cult level Christian to Agnostic with a Theology degree over a few years was interesting, and has led me to have an approach where I wanted to prove whatever I could to myself, from then on.

In graduate school, I would make my classmates with engineering degrees a little crazy when I might have needed to ask that extra question about the Stochastic Calculus I needed to understand better than I did, as one of very few Turbo Poets trying to keep up with the Quant Jocks. But once I understood, the world opened up.

Needing to understand it beyond the superficial has served me well in audio as well as in business and life...and I've tried to avoid becoming too cynical along the way. That said...the truth is, there is a lot of total bullshit out there... Everywhere.

Evolution is not bullshit...it's not shaky science...at least not IMNSHO...

I would just encourage you to do the same with evolution as you hopefully do with audio...really try to understand it...not just understand your side of the argument better.

Holy crap, I'm exhausted after all that sharing...

I hope this is taken in the spirit intended...not meant to seem like I am preaching (?) to anyone.
As @Thomas savage said...these can get ugly quick, and if I've jumped the shark, just let me know. Wouldn't be the first time...

Thanks for sharing and no sharks were harmed or jumped in your post. :)

I live in an area where I put this on my rear bumper.
1574144505345.png


Had to take it off after I suffered vandalism of my vehicle and repeated visits from various area churches on visitation night. I didn't mind the visitation visits too much. They didn't leave satisfied or feeling like they'd handled it well. The vandalism was a surprise. These god-fearing people had to resort to cowardly vandalism of property to be Christ-like? Huh?? I did have some people engage me when returning to my vehicle which was okay. I was surprised this little thing made them wait around until they could confront me. They seemed to be threatened by my disbelief more than I thought they would be.

Evolution is not only not BS, it is one of the more elegant wonderful insights of humanity. Once you understand and get it, you both wonder how it was missed for so long, and marvel at how informing the simple idea is. I'm not so sure it isn't a higher intellectual achievement than Einstein's relativity.
 
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Wombat

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Strange how some believers are happy to foray into other peoples space yet would be aghast and offended if their gathering was treated similarly by their targets. Religion or audio?
 
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Wombat

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In a science assignment you would be expected to provide something more than a biblical quote in support of a claim that the earth is 6000 years old. I see nothing wrong with the guidance quoted by SIY and the number of scientists, doctors, engineers etc who have beld devout religious beliefs would indicate that there is no reason a person cannot hold religious beliefs and also work according to scientific principles of research and evidence.

The last sentence has always given me doubts about such people. They must be accomplished mental gymnasts or selective deniers. Talking about audio of course. ;)

In Australia it is called having two bob each way. A bob was about 10 cents.
 
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KozmoNaut

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There are observations on new species?
Do tell, could you provide a link.

adaptation (ie variations in color, smaller groups, dog breeds) is not proof of evolution. Show how species b evolves from species A. Example different # of chromosomes etc.

Links have already been posted.

I'll just add that adaptation is evolution in action. Mutation and gradual adaptation are what slowly favor traits that happen to be beneficial for survival.

It doesn't just go "poof!" from one species to another. It's a slow change over time, with no clear delineation.
 
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Wombat

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