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Belief vs Science

digicidal

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Are you saying that a culture of debt-slavery and control by the media-pharmaceutical complex aren't a recipe for health and wealth? Insanity!

I don't watch TV much at all anymore, but my wife does all the time. It boggles the mind when out of 6 advertisements in a break... 3 are for prescription drugs, and the other 3 are for class-action lawsuits against the previous season's prescription drugs. :facepalm:
 

Sal1950

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Are you saying that a culture of debt-slavery and control by the media-pharmaceutical complex aren't a recipe for health and wealth? Insanity!
WHAT???

I don't watch TV much at all anymore, but my wife does all the time.
That's what they all claim, "I would never stoop to such low-class entertainment" LOL

It boggles the mind when out of 6 advertisements in a break... 3 are for prescription drugs, and the other 3 are for class-action lawsuits against the previous season's prescription drugs
Ain't that a hoot, too funny. LOL
 

JJB70

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The issue of skilled trades people earning more than graduates and professional workers is not new. In some cases it can be ridiculous, some of the purchase orders I signed for coded welders in electricity generation were full on bonkers but if you want a welder with the right ticket who can work quickly and pass the NDE you have to pay the going rate.

Then again, potential opportunities tend to be much better in professional roles.
 

KozmoNaut

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I'm genuinely glad that some skilled trades pay that well. Blue collar workers have been looked down on for decades, with an attitude of "you are nothing if you don't have a college degree", by people who wouldn't know the first thing about pipe dope or framing geometry, and who've never worn a steel toe boot.

Consequently, fewer young people chose the skilled trades, and the demand for their skills is bigger than ever. Physical on-location work can't really be outsourced, and unions are mercifully still strong, so they get paid a wage commensurate with the value of their work.

Hands-on work, good strong unions and an ever-increasing need for their skills. Of course they're more in demand than yet another CS major also-ran :)
 
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Sal1950

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I'm genuinely glad that some skilled trades pay that well.
+1 In general it takes longer for a skilled trade worker to become "skilled" than to earn a PHD. As an example, walk into your local new car dealer and look at the 10' long double stacked tool boxes of their techs, how much money do you think's involved? Then consider the almost yearly training they take part in to stay current with the insane technology being put into todays cars.
 

MediumRare

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The provisions of the bill that are cited do not match what the opponents in the article claim. Unless there is something else going on, I see this as pretty much a non-issue.
Not picking on you personally. The reason is that under the law creationist answers must not be marked wrong for biology class, for example.
 

JJB70

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Pay is basically down to supply and demand. If you have a skill or knowledge which is in demand and supply is tight then you'll probably do very well in terms of pay. I'd also agree that plenty of skilled trades require a degree of training and expertise which necessitates a high level of learning. In many cases such people also have to carry an awful lot of responsibility too as if they fail to do their job to the required standard the consequences can be catastrophic.
On the other hand good pay in skilled trades can have the unfortunate consequence of inhibiting career development to the detriment of long term potential. I've worked for several employers who had very good policies to encourage career development by offering financial support for people to study and go into higher education and to promote internally where good people had the right skills but not the academic qualifications and they tended to struggle to encourage people to do it because at least in the short term it tended to entail a reduction in income.
I'll admit a vested interest here as I returned to education as a (slightly) mature student after leaving the merchant navy when the electricity company I worked for offered to assist me to get my BEng. When I went from shift charge engineer of a power plant (shift manager, basically) to power plant operations manager in theory I received a significant pay rise as my shift pay was consolidated into my salary but my income remained the same and I lost over time pay and various allowances which meant I actually lost quite a lot. Colleagues thought I was dumb (and maybe they were right) but then again in the longer term I've ended up well ahead and from there I returned to marine and found some terrific roles and returned to education again to do my Master's.
 
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Wombat

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+1 In general it takes longer for a skilled trade worker to become "skilled" than to earn a PHD. As an example, walk into your local new car dealer and look at the 10' long double stacked tool boxes of their techs, how much money do you think's involved? Then consider the almost yearly training they take part in to stay current with the insane technology being put into todays cars.

In Australia, motor mechanics have been at the bottom of trades in terms of income and still are. The building trade guys are doing well. Get a job in our mining industry and the pay skyrockets.
 

Sal1950

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In Australia, motor mechanics have been at the bottom of trades in terms of income and still are. The building trade guys are doing well. Get a job in our mining industry and the pay skyrockets.
Pretty much the same here. Makes my want to puke when I hear people moan about the cost of repairs on their cars and trucks.
 

JJB70

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Hopefully this link will work:

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/opaq...-martini/?trackingId=QZCB6vQmjQ6h9xPfxW9opw==

This sums up quite a few of my concerns in the whole climate and sustainability debate. I remember when this "report" was released it received a lot of attention and many cited it as "evidence" of which shipping lines were taking sustainability seriously. At the time a lot of people looked at it and asked the obvious question - on what basis are these companies being "named and shamed" or listed as being virtuous? Very few made an issue as these reports tend to work as click bait and if you ask the obvious questions the standard response is to be branded a climate change denoer, and to be honest the hassle just isn't worth it. However someone has decided to ask the obvious questions.

To be clear I am not saying the findings of this summary are false. They may be entirely accurate. However, we have no way of knowing whether they are accurate or complete nonsense. Yet, stuff like this is thrown in the public domain and picked up by some as evidence supporting certain positions on the basis of nothing.

I have reviewed a lot of reports which do provide details of methodologies and in several cases found quite blatant systemic bias in the methodology and in others basic errors in math or underpinning science yet if you point out this stuff you risk being denounced.

This is not about climate change, it is about the quality of debate and holding those seeking to influence a policy debate to account in expecting a certain level of transparency and technical competence in their work, whichever position they are advocating.
 
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jfetter

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In a science assignment you would be expected to provide something more than a biblical quote in support of a claim that the earth is 6000 years old. I see nothing wrong with the guidance quoted by SIY and the number of scientists, doctors, engineers etc who have beld devout religious beliefs would indicate that there is no reason a person cannot hold religious beliefs and also work according to scientific principles of research and evidence.

Is relativity, SR and Time itself a religious belief? It has all the ingredients of a cult.
Proof is discarded or hidden and naysayers are burned at the stake.
When it fails a new 'particle' is is proposed.
just saying...
 

Tks

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Is relativity, SR and Time itself a religious belief? It has all the ingredients of a cult.
Proof is discarded or hidden and naysayers are burned at the stake.
When it fails a new 'particle' is is proposed.
just saying...

Are you perhaps aware what entities popularized this practice exactly? The same folks who are now in the same organizations/institutions that want to bury these historical events and distance themselves from such people and such time. Trying to be under the guise that their interpretations of their religion is the valid one today, while others are wrong (in the same way their forefathers claimed similarly 1:1 when they were alive). The approach and slightly changing message repeating constantly while trying to survive the rest of the worlds' advances and the slow erosion of nearly all their claims slowly but surly being disproven by the one ONLY thing that has proven itself time and again to be our best course for a better understanding of our reality, which in turn gives us the predictive capability to make sensible decisions to the things we aspire to achieve.

The only reason any changes of religious belief occurs is because it's power as an institution has diminished, and sensible people have finally outnumbered and over powered the lunacy machinations of the psychotic power-hungry ego maniacs of the past when people knew no better, and knew better than to question the power of religious authority.

Which I feel is a true betrayal of one's own religion in the first place, as you either have to A) Concede everyone before you was wrong in their interpretations, or B) God actually allows any leeway in the interpretations of his divine decrees.

Either way you look at it, you either throw out the foundations of your religion, and then have nothing to base it on (aside from your own personal beliefs and whatever "you feel like it" should be, like others have always done anyway). Or you have to risk sending yourself to whatever punishment awaits those that question their God by saying his revelations aren't the ultimate and everlasting decrees of which there can never be misinterpretation about. The odds are stacked against you though, as there have been many people before you who believed their ideas were right about their religion - it takes a massive hubris to think you happen to be alive just by chance, where the majority accepted interpretation is right, while all others are wrong.

That is the differentiating fact between science and religion, and why they can never coexist equally (but can coexist hypocritically and illogically). Science has no qualms about changing it's mind, in fact that is the welcoming aspect, where the challenge is to prove the other person wrong if you can, and everyone is all the better for it, as all benefit from truth. Only in religion can asking for the whole truth be seen as a non virtue (many who will attest to the instances where you're told not to "ask to many questions").

If belief in "Time" is a religion, then belief in anything is a religion, and thus there is no use for the word belief, and we can just call everything a religion that someone believes in. All a part of a cult somehow as you seem to think.

The only time in science people are figuratively "burned at the stake" is when they are exposed for being liars attempting to pass off truth as fact through fabricated experimental results, or purposefully misleading tactics going against the Scientific Method. As for hiding? Scientific evidence is never hidden after it is published. This is a declaratory statement that need not be accepted. As for discarded? Evidence can always be discarded if it doesn't have any merit in the ascertaining of a conclusion. Like if I am trying to figure out what makes people fat, and then I accidentally figure the diameter of the Sun, I can discard that, as it doesn't serve as evidence for figuring out why people are fat..

And finally when a test fails, and "a new particle is proposed" as you say.. what do you expect to be done? Do we propose we should maybe eat, and keep working for another 100 years trying to find the one particle we think may be out there, but haven't found? I don't see what the problem with doing that. If you drive to work every day for instance, and take the highway filled with traffic.. And you now start wondering if there is a faster way to get to work everyday, why would it be bad to consider another route like local roads, that don't have traffic but do have their own problem like stop lights that may slow you down? Under your mode of operation you would stay on the highway forever, trying to evade traffic, perhaps maybe figure out ways to shove people off the road, and all sorts of things, but you should never try anything else aside from the highway no matter what?

Is it anymore clear to how unsound your thoughts on this matter are?
 

jfetter

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No problem, it just appears to me as a dichotomy but with same actors in play.
Thanks for giving it some thought.

Have a Motu M2 on the way so will be having fun.
Already see a location for two BNC connectors on rear panel.
Have a merry Christmas.
 

noobie1

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https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/...lest-living-organism-possible-in-a-laboratory

The simplest living organism engineered thus far has 437 genes. Currently, no evolutionary biologist can give a believable explanation how 437 genes randomly came together to form the first organism. Surely, the number of essential genes will go down as people do more research but it probably won't go down to one or even single digits.

I've been in settings where the question of how the first organism came into existence was posed to world renowned scientists (including a Nobel prize winner). The ones I've come across admit there is no good explanation but have a strong belief that science will eventually come up with one.
 

Tks

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https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/...lest-living-organism-possible-in-a-laboratory

The simplest living organism engineered thus far has 437 genes. Currently, no evolutionary biologist can give a believable explanation how 437 genes randomly came together to form the first organism. Surely, the number of essential genes will go down as people do more research but it probably won't go down to one or even single digits.

What are you talking about? You are saying the lab engineered organism was created, but the biologists involved had no idea how these even created it? That makes no sense..

I've been in settings where the question of how the first organism came into existence was posed to world renowned scientists (including a Nobel prize winner). The ones I've come across admit there is no good explanation but have a strong belief that science will eventually come up with one.

What were the names of these people? I have a hard time thinking world renown Nobel Prize winning scientists would have never heard of Abiogenesis.
 

noobie1

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What are you talking about? You are saying the lab engineered organism was created, but the biologists involved had no idea how these even created it? That makes no sense..

One thing that science struggles to answer is how the first self-perpetuating organism came into existence. If formation of life was purely a material affair, there must have been some self-assembly process that took place during the formation of the first organism.

Scientists pursue this question/answer in a number of ways. One approach is to take a very simple organism known and starting deleting its genes. Soon you'll get to point where you've identified genes absolutely essential for the survival and perpetuation of that organism. The hope is one day you'll get to a point where you've recreated the ground zero organism. Then maybe you could possibly replicate the conditions required for abiogenesis.

Right now, the simplest organism still has at least 400 genes. This is an incredibly complex organism and cannot be explained by any self-assembly mechanism we currently know. Moreover, a self-replicating organism requires both genetic material (DNA) and molecular machinery (proteins) in order to replicate the genetic material. As far as we know, DNA and proteins are inextricably tied. DNA encodes proteins but proteins are required for DNA replication. It becomes a chicken or the egg type of dilemma.

That's why there are many scientists who believe the first biopolymer was RNA. RNA can store genetic information like DNA but can also catalyze reactions like proteins. To my knowledge, no self-replicating RNA has been discovered.
 
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Wombat

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'Belief' entrenchment is strongly associated with group-belonging. It is hard to walk away from herd mentality.
 
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