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Belden ICONOCLAST XLR Cable Review

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    Votes: 152 53.9%
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Beave

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Will they measure differently according to Amir's tests though, which is the pont.

Yes, they would. Amir measured several speaker cables a few years ago. As part of those measurements, he measured resistance. Resistance varied with gauge, as expected.
 
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don'ttrustauthority

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Yes, they would. Amir measured several speaker cables a few years ago. As part of those measurements, he measured resistance. Resistance varied with gauge, as expected.
I am referring to the audibility measurements in this article. Would the measurements in this article be different for a 10 ga vs a 16 ga cable?
 

Beave

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You replied to a post about speaker cables.

This review was about balanced interconnects, not speaker cables.

The measurements in this "article" are not the same as the measurements Amir has done for speaker cables.
 

Beave

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The reason we believe in these 'things' is because I can take two items that measure audibly identically, yet sound different. Take the iBasso dx300 and the Mojo2 on my desk, for example. Through DCA Stealth and ZMF Atrium headphones, they sound much different and yet measure beyond audibly transparent according to Amir's criteria. You explain that.

Let me guess. Not level matched, not double blinded, and you heard a difference. Try it again with proper controls.
 

srkbear

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Mark Twain said it well:

“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble.

It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.”

Big props for the Mark Twain quote. Many of his quips could apply here. After reading Galen’s word salad I think he could use a copy of Orwell’s “Politics and the English Language”…
 

srkbear

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The reason we believe in these 'things' is because I can take two items that measure audibly identically, yet sound different. Take the iBasso dx300 and the Mojo2 on my desk, for example. Through DCA Stealth and ZMF Atrium headphones, they sound much different and yet measure beyond audibly transparent according to Amir's criteria. You explain that.
You seem to have been on this forum a very long time, so I’m surprised you’re raising this kind of question. But let’s go back to audio science basics, if I may.

First of all both units you mention are far more than just DACs. One is a DAP and the other is a DAC/amp, and I know of no evidence that they measure “identically”. Their DACs are hardly comparable in terms of measurements; the iBasso uses quad CS41398 chips, while the Chord uses whatever you want to call Rob Watts’ FPGA home brew madness.

In addition, their amps alone have completely discrete characteristics, and Amir has gone on record that amplifier measurements are not quite as definitive as DAC measurements in predicting qualitative endpoints (although they’re quite good). And other than the fact that your comparison is completely undisciplined and anecdotal, the design of your assessment is rife with confounds.

But besides all that, if you really want the primary explanation, here:

 
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AudioSceptic

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DWI

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I dunno what to make of your dealer’s POV—my husband and I tend to both appreciate aesthetics, although I’m usually the one looking under the hood. He must be one of those straight guys who really gets women.
Aesthetics are important to me too. However, for the previous 5 years I had traditional veneered boxes that I didn't like much and my wife hated. To get a speaker that we both like aesthetically and sonically is a real result.

The dealer has a soft touch. He spends most of his time doing installations and demonstrations at clients' homes. Certainly from my experience, this becomes a family affair. It gets back to knowing your client.

Another excellent dealer near me set up the business about 6 years ago and his wife, who was originally in an administrative support role, now seems to have a key role in the business. I'm sure it helps and the business is a big success.

Amir and some others complain about my comments (others agree with them), but I tend to comment only on products and brands I have or do own. I have Blue Jeans ethernet cables, the brand in this review. Quite a bit of what I read here seems to be about saving audiophiles from themselves, which may be a noble cause, but largely I think audiophiles are mischaracterised for three main reasons. First, I suspect most high-end audio is still sold retail (maybe less in the USA), and so what goes on online is largely irrelevant. Secondly, there is still a sizeable DIY and low rent audiophile community, who don't need saving because they are hobbyists. Thirdly, there are big regional variations and certainly in the UK there is nothing like the obsession with cables that seems to exist in the USA.

I ironically, my dealer that @DSJR worked at and has known for 50 years used to sell AudioQuest cables and conditioners. Their chief designer came to the UK and did a presentation a few years ago. The dealer has now completely dropped AudioQuest. I do't know why, but I suppose some people would call that progress.
 

AudioSceptic

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I am not making this up....

There are guys into audio, on audio forums, that somehow believe, that there are "Things" that factor into sound, that we do not understand nor have any grasp of......Things that are somehow ABLE to be designed and pass audio frequencies, yet STILL defy measurement or common electrical principles and rules, and can skirt physics.

They lack the ability though, to understand that although this stuff can not be truly measured or understood, that somehow someone still can design it, based on simply some guys, saying they can hear things that most can not hear.

They have nothing to back up any of this, other than anecdotal tales on the internet.
It will never pass the scrutiny or validation of a blind test, but they just "KNOW" it sounds better.....

They usually lack they ability to understand how human hearing works, and believe, that what they "THINK" they hear, is always reality.
Yes, but it's not just audio. Most people think that anyone who knows just some basic maths and science is a "boffin", and critical thinking and scientific scepticism are completely absent in the world view of most. We've put people on the Moon, sent probes to the outer planets, can look back in time to just after the Big Bang, can modify the genes of organisms, and can describe matter at the level of quarks and leptons, yet most of the world's population still believe in the supernatural and various forms of magic.
 

BDWoody

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didn't hear a difference and I made it up because I expected it (even though I expected them to be identical and was SHOCKED when I heard that .. so how does that bias even work?

Maybe you should look into that whole bias subject.
What you are providing is anecdote, not evidence.

Through DCA Stealth and ZMF Atrium headphones, they sound much different and yet measure beyond audibly transparent according to Amir's criteria. You explain that.

No controls for that pesky bias thing, right? There's your explanation. Want to be taken more seriously? Provide evidence. Until then, please stop with the 'i know what I hear' line of posts.
 

AudioSceptic

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A friend of mine with very expensive system (think for starters D'Agastino amplification) best summarized what he "hears" as follows:
Bits != bits.

Of course, his computer would not work if bits in didn't equal bits out, but that "small" fact cannot be discussed because bits != bits in his very expensive world of hifi.

Exact copies of CD's, played via the same transport, sound different to him.

His system does sound glorious, but he could have saved a hundred thousand dollars here and there and still had the same glorious sound.

Bottom line is that he's free to spend his money as he sees fit, but his beneficiaries thank him over and over.

I've simply learned not to disuss any of this bits stuff with him. It's a waste of time.
People hear what they want to hear.
And no doubt he refuses to take a double-blind test, or to accept their validity!
 

beagleman

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I did prove it. I listened. I can prove it to you to. Listen.
Not wanting to get into some battle of semantics or OF proof....but....
I was asking for you to prove it TO ME, that you heard some difference.
More than an anecdotal experience......

Ya, know, more along the lines of, have a friend or someone neutral do a semi controlled test and see if you REALLY heard the difference.

Saying you proved it , on an audio forum, but with no controls and a sighted test, are......do not truly qualify as actual proof, ya know??

I simply do not care enough to bother doing a controlled listening test, when I know (for most intents) the outcome will most likely come down to random chance or guessing.
 
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Grooved

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Once I had my workflow setup, I made two separate captures using the same WBC cable. I captured the results at 24 bits/44.1 KHz. I originally used 176 kHz but there is a ton of noise there that was interfering with proper testing (but still worked). Here is how that "null" looks:
View attachment 206376

This is a superb null indicating that down to threshold of hearing (-115 dB), we don't have any difference. Seeing how we didn't change anything in the two runs, this is the best our analysis allows.

Now let's swap the cables for Iconoclast TPC XLR:
View attachment 206377

So despite changing the XLR cable and capturing analog output of the DAC, there is no difference in our null. The cable is as innocent in this pipeline as it can be.

If you want to do your own testing/listening/comparing, here are the three files:

WBC cable: https://www.dropbox.com/s/2qaikozigrtdpma/Multitrack Capture_mixdown_Capture 1 WBC.wav?dl=0
Iconoclast cable: https://www.dropbox.com/s/k2z3rizs8wchqo4/Multitrack Capture_mixdown_Iconoclast TPC XLR.wav?dl=0
Null/difference file: https://www.dropbox.com/s/fp2otdat2ln5w01/WBC vs Iconoclast XLR TPC.wav?dl=0

Hi @amirm , I'm not surprised that switching cables didn't changed anything, but there's one thing I'm not sure about: is your first picture the original file compared to the recording?
If so, what was your settings in DeltaWave?
 

DWI

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@beagleman
Imagine a primitive man thousands of years ago sitting under an apple tree and apples start falling down in front of him. He tells his friends that they all fall straight down. No, they say, that's anecdotal, prove it. Anyway, the leaves fall slower and usually sideways. He's not going to wait thousands of years for Newton to explain gravity and wind resistance. He's certainly not going to invent differential calculus as a precursor for explaining the gravitational force. More likely, he'll eat the apples and enjoy them, perhaps put a net under the tree to catch them so they don't bruise or split.

The history of mankind is full of anecdotal experience waiting for an explanation. That's how science works. If you ignore anecdotal experience, progress explaining the physical world will come to an end. Most people pre-Newton would simply have avoided walking under apple trees should apples land on their head, but there would have been a few natural philosophers asking the more fundamental question : why they fell from the tree at all.

I have no skin in the game. My last component system was balanced and I used Mogami 2534 analogue XLR cables at about £15 each. But if people say they hear a difference, good for them, let them enjoy it, I'm sure one day it will be explained one way or another.

I'm no scientist. Galen appears to describe various reactive effects between cables and components. He may be correct that scientifically they do have an impact, but whether and how they may be audible is another matter.
 
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beagleman

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@beagleman
Imagine a primitive man thousands of years ago sitting under an apple tree and apples start falling down in front of him. He tells his friends that they all fall straight down. No, they say, that's anecdotal, prove it. Anyway, the leaves fall slower and usually sideways. He's not going to wait thousands of years for Newton to explain gravity and wind resistance. He's certainly not going to invent differential calculus as a precursor for explaining the gravitational force. More likely, he'll eat the apples and enjoy them, perhaps put a net under the tree to catch them so they don't bruise or split.

The history of mankind is full of anecdotal experience waiting for an explanation. That's how science works. If you ignore anecdotal experience, progress explaining the physical world will come to an end. Most people pre-Newton would simply have avoided walking under apple trees should apples land on their head, but there would have been a few natural philosophers asking the more fundamental question : why they fell from the tree at all.

I have no skin in the game. My last component system was balanced and I used Mogami 2534 analogue XLR cables at about £15 each. But if people say they hear a difference, good for them, let them enjoy it, I'm sure one day it will be explained one way or another.

I'm no scientist. Galen appears to describe various reactive effects between cables and components. He may be correct that scientifically they do have an impact, but whether and how they may be audible is another matter.
But in this case, it is easy to do a somewhat controlled blind listen and SEE FOR SURE if someone hears a difference, and can validate what they say.

Seeing an apple fall from a tree is not a subjective event, that can be biased or a fiction of the mind. I get your point, but not really the same...
 
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DSJR

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All I have now is anecdotes and it pees me off (and occasionally others too I gather) something awful, as I can't sit people down and demonstrate things :D I do appreciate here on ASR, we need properly tested and repeatable evidence and also some kind of research findings regularly repeated as to how easily we are fooled in what we think we hear (sight, touch, cost and so on).

I do worry about solid core conductors though, if only for reliability, knowing the way people pull and push the plugs in and out, even XLR's... Not presumption here, just experience and if it takes one to know one, I'll hold my hand up timidly! :D
 

DWI

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But in this case, it is easy to do a somewhat controlled blind listen and SEE FOR SURE if someone hears a difference, and can validate what they say.

Seeing an apple fall from a tree is not a subjective event, that can be biased or a fiction of the mind. I get your point, but not really the same...
I'm with you, but people don't. The point of the example was as much as to point out how important, and difficult, it often is to conceive the right question - why does the apple fall at all. I'm sure everyone here appreciates that often it's the question that is harder to find than the answer.

I may be an audiophile, whatever that is, but my reason for using cheap cables is that in my ignorance I can't imagine what the problem could possibly be to make a cable that properly conducts a signal that costs more than a few bucks. My only concerns are robust construction and that it is tested, which Blue Jeans Cables do.

Cleverer people may one day come up with why a different design may sound better, and be able to prove it, but I won't lose sleep waiting.

The marketing that I object to is the concept that better cables are always more complex to make, often with expensive materials, and hence have to be hugely expensive. In my world, if there is a better cable, there may be only a modest premium. Current marketing of cables could be considered exploitative, but everybody markets dreams, I put it more down to the gullibility of the consumer.

I said it a long time ago, but the idea that anyone could make 10 ethernet/RCA/XLR (take your pick) cables that are incrementally better and more expensive is to me just nonsense.
 

SIY

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@beagleman
Imagine a primitive man thousands of years ago sitting under an apple tree and apples start falling down in front of him. He tells his friends that they all fall straight down. No, they say, that's anecdotal, prove it. Anyway, the leaves fall slower and usually sideways. He's not going to wait thousands of years for Newton to explain gravity and wind resistance. He's certainly not going to invent differential calculus as a precursor for explaining the gravitational force. More likely, he'll eat the apples and enjoy them, perhaps put a net under the tree to catch them so they don't bruise or split.

The history of mankind is full of anecdotal experience waiting for an explanation. That's how science works. If you ignore anecdotal experience, progress explaining the physical world will come to an end. Most people pre-Newton would simply have avoided walking under apple trees should apples land on their head, but there would have been a few natural philosophers asking the more fundamental question : why they fell from the tree at all.

I have no skin in the game. My last component system was balanced and I used Mogami 2534 analogue XLR cables at about £15 each. But if people say they hear a difference, good for them, let them enjoy it, I'm sure one day it will be explained one way or another.

I'm no scientist. Galen appears to describe various reactive effects between cables and components. He may be correct that scientifically they do have an impact, but whether and how they may be audible is another matter.
There' a difference between ordinary claims and extraordinary claims. Between replicable and repeatable phenomena (like falling apples) and vastly unlikely pathological claims ("Green apples fall upward!").

Trying to logic out scams is a sucker's game.
 
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