Being an objectivist this feeling is eating my brain... [Headphone amps]

[mcebrian]

Hi all,

I wanted to share something with you all after months of reflecting about it without reaching any reasonable conclusion or output... Maybe getting older but nothing else xD

I have been an "Audiophile" and an engineer for quite some years now, I have had different equipment, from very cheap to very expensive, and this is the second time in my life that I have observed / faced the following:

So, this is the equipment in question:

Issue:
As an engineer I deny anything that I can't measure repeatedly and that can be sustained by numbers... but... The Auralic Taurus Mk II sounds better to me with different headphones than the Topping A90 in most of the occasions. I have forced myself to do level-matched blinded A/B tests with a friend (thanks for his patience) changing the cable again and again and I "prefer" what I feel with the Auralic even if I want to like more the Topping A90 because I have read 100 times the review from @amirm.

Question:
Have you experience any similar situation when the number say one thing and your brain feels the opposite? Could it be possible to "like" some type of distorsion? ...

Let me close saying that as an engineer I appreciate the work Amir and Wolf and everyone else does here presenting real figures and solid data as opposed to the biased / paid reviews and nonsense EVERYWHERE else but... I wanted to share this thought in spite of most probably getting burned.

 

[JohnYang1997]

'Could it be possible to "like" some type of distorsion? ...'
100%

On the other hand, it would be that the change Auralic made is preferable with your headphones/earphones. Very possible.

 

[q3cpma]

Level matching?

 

[mcebrian]

Level matching?

Yes of course!

 

[q3cpma]

Yes of course!

I mean, in what way. I'm really not an expert in the subject, but I've understood that only by using a voltmeter you can be sure enough; and I expect headphone listening to be more sensitive to it than loudspeakers.

 

[Andrew s]

Impedance of the phones v output impedance of the headphone amps could have a measurable effect.
Regards Andrew

 

[mcebrian]

I mean, in what way. I'm really not an expert in the subject, but I've understood that only using a voltmeter you can be sure enough; and I expect headphone listening to be more sensitive to it than loudspeakers.

You are right, it was done playing a 1 Khz tone and a quick FFT using a microphone, then adjusting the pot manually until getting the value. Even if the microphone or adc are not the best, it should be matched enough in my opinion.

 

[BrEpBrEpBrEpBrEp]

Thing is that if you subjectively like a certain kind of distortion or coloration, you can always reproduce it in DSP for use with a transparent DAC/Amp. The opposite can't be done, however. So even if you have a preference for a type of ""flaw"", it's better for devices to be as neutral and transparent as possible so that every person's preference can potentially be accommodated.

That's assuming the Auralic Taurus Mk II isn't transparent.

 

[mcebrian]

Thing is that if you subjectively like a certain kind of distortion or coloration, you can always reproduce it in DSP for use with a transparent DAC/Amp. The opposite can't be done, however. So even if you have a preference for a type of ""flaw"", it's better for devices to be as neutral and transparent as possible so that every person's preference can potentially be accommodated.

That's assuming the Auralic Taurus Mk II isn't transparent.

Lets assume you are right, the question is, how can anyone measure the type of distortion / coloration that one likes without selling the house to buy an APx555?

Nonetheless, the main topic here for me was that i want to like the pristine-perfect sound of the A90, but my brain refuses... And even if the difference is minimal, I find it interesting...

 

[BrEpBrEpBrEpBrEp]

Lets assume you are right, the question is, how can anyone measure the type of distortion / coloration that one likes without selling the house to buy an APx555?

Nonetheless, the main topic here for me was that i want to like the pristine-perfect sound of the A90, but my brain refuses... And even if the difference is minimal, I find it interesting...

If it's clearly audible, you can probably measure it with a decent sound card or a cheap-ish oscilloscope (at least compared to the APx555). Not every measurement needs 140 dB of dynamic range. Other than that, there's always trial and error, based on what is commonly understood as "good". DSP to introduce distortion is incredibly common in music production already, so whether it's possible isn't really an issue.

And hey, you like what you like. All the more power to you.

 

[mcebrian]

If it's clearly audible, you can probably measure it with a decent sound card or a cheap-ish oscilloscope (at least compared to the APx555). Not every measurement needs 140 dB of dynamic range. Other than that, there's always trial and error, based on what is commonly understood as "good"

As a matter of fact I tried to measure it with my oscilloscope (not good) over the last months... nothing relevant. Which is not surprising because we are talking about a 10-12 bit ADC.

Really curious if anyone else has experienced the feeling of wanting to like a superiorly-engineered product but faced this same dichotomy.

 

[Jimbob54]

Send the Auralic to Amir!

It would be a fascinating thing to see how the various tests done here stack up on it compared to the A90. Lets assume your AB testing methodology holds water - there really ought to be some clear differences in how the two devices measure and give you some insight as to what it is you are preferring. Of course, the wheels come off that argument if the 2 amps both measure around or below generally accepted levels of transparency, but lets cross that bridge when we come to it.

Assuming there is audible levels of distortion (harmonic and/ or IMD) or possibly the the Auralic has some high output impedance there is your answer.

Preferring audible harmonic distortion is no problem at all, neither is the usual sentiments around things sounding more "real" etc etc . Where things get heated is where those preferring transparency clash with those preferring pleasing distortion is around use of "better" . Low distortion/ transparency is undoubtedly more accurate to the source file- maybe not more pleasant on some recordings to some ears. I think there is room for both in a system if you have the space and funds

 

[solderdude]

Lets assume you are right, the question is, how can anyone measure the type of distortion / coloration that one likes without selling the house to buy an APx555?

Nonetheless, the main topic here for me was that i want to like the pristine-perfect sound of the A90, but my brain refuses... And even if the difference is minimal, I find it interesting...

When you have a soundcard and a headphone plug splitter it is very easy to determine differences using music and you don't even have to level match exactly, just ballpark.

Play a song via Auralic and the headphone connected. You split the headphone signal and record that signal using a soundcard.
Record in 96/24 or something like that.
You can use Audacity (freeware) for the recording.
Then switch to the A90 and record the same music, same circumstances.
Then record the music a third time but directly from the DAC out out the recording soundcard (will be your reference)

Compare the 2 recordings with software from @pkane and you can determine how much they differ and how much difference there is between the 'reference' and both headphone outputs.

Will only cost you time (assuming you have a decent ADC)

 

[Katji]

[...]
Issue:
As an engineer I deny anything that I can't measure repeatedly and that can be sustained by numbers... but... The Auralic Taurus Mk II sounds better to me with different headphones than the Topping A90 in most of the occasions. I have forced myself to do level-matched blinded A/B tests with a friend (thanks for his patience) changing the cable again and again and I "prefer" what I feel with the Auralic even if I want to like more the Topping A90 because I have read 100 times the review from @amirm.

Question:
Have you experience any similar situation when the number say one thing and your brain feels the opposite? Could it be possible to "like" some type of distorsion? ...
[...]

Really curious if anyone else has experienced the feeling of wanting to like a superiorly-engineered product but faced this same dichotomy.

Psychology.

 

[BeerBear]

I have forced myself to do level-matched blinded A/B tests with a friend (thanks for his patience) changing the cable again and again and I "prefer" what I feel with the Auralic

What does that mean, in numbers? Is it statistically significant, with a sufficient number of tests?

Were you in the same room as the gear during testing? Plugging/unplugging a jack makes a different physical sound with different equipment. Even the electrical noise it makes through the headphone drivers can sound different, so maybe you'd need to take off the headphones during that process.
Some equipment also produces audible external noise (such as coil whine), either while it's being used or while it's in standby.

Does either of those use an analog pot? Because that can affect L/R balance audibly, so level matching needs to be done for both channels.



There are many things that can go wrong when blind testing hardware. It requires careful preparation to eliminate every possible bias. Maybe you did everything right, just saying.

 

[mr.k]

If people always liked more correct/accurate things, broccoli would be most popular food in the world

 

[Feyire]

Impedance of the phones v output impedance of the headphone amps could have a measurable effect.
Regards Andrew

This is a good point.

@mcebrian, what headphones did you use in your comparisons? Also, did your friend agree with your conclusion? (i.e. did he also prefer the sound of the Auralic?)

Personally, I'd go with your gut feeling. As such, if the Auralic consistently sounds more pleasing to you, then that is what you should use. Imagine torturing yourself continuously over time with a sound you don't like listening to, simply because an objective review says the design is good and you force yourself to believe that it should then also sound better (clearly to you, this is not the case).

I was also in similar position with my NC400 amplifiers. According to Amir's measurements, it is the second best measured power amplifier at ASR. Did I like the sound of it? Unfortunately not quite, I always felt something was not quite right. In the end, I was able to modify my amplifiers to resolve it, but otherwise I'd probably have sold them and looked for something else.

In the end, when you sit in front of your sound system, only one thing matters, what you hear and experience. So if it doesn't sound good to you, then yeah, I'd also experiment to see what the source(s) of the problem(s) could be and how to move towards a sound you like.

 

[Nango]

@mcebrian Sell the Topping, problem solved?

 

[mcebrian]

Imagine torturing yourself continuously over time with a sound you don't like listening to, simply because an objective review says the design is good and you force yourself to believe that it should then also sound better (clearly to you, this is not the case).

Haha, this has been the case for some time but not anymore. I use the topping only for IEMs now a days.

I was also in similar position with my NC400 amplifiers. According to Amir's measurements, it is the second best measured power amplifier at ASR. Did I like the sound of it? Unfortunately not quite, I always felt something was not quite right. In the end, I was able to modify my amplifiers to resolve it, but otherwise I'd probably have sold them and looked for something else.

Thanks for explaining a similar case. Human Psycology Plays a big role… that is something we tend to forget when looking at the numbers.

Does either of those use an analog pot? Because that can affect L/R balance audibly, so level matching needs to be done for both channels.

I believe both of them use an analogue pot in this case.

Compare the 2 recordings with software from @pkane and you can determine how much they differ and how much difference there is between the 'reference' and both headphone outputs.

Thanks for the idea. This is something to do over the holidays…

 

[mcebrian]

@mcebrian Sell the Topping, problem solved?

No, no. It is a super well-engineered product. Maybe after some time another pair of “final game” headphones gives me the opposite feeling. Will keep both. Just wanted to share my internal fight with the community.