-
Welcome to ASR. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!
Behringer UMC204 HD Audio Interface Review
- Thread starter amirm
- Start date
SLAS
Member
- Joined
- Jul 25, 2024
- Messages
- 14
- Likes
- 0
Looping is probably the same as writing on a Rialtek, and high frequencies are not written by the sound card, you need to look only with an oscilloscope. Without an oscilloscope, we'll never know the truth. By the way, my oscilloscope shows and measures correctly, I double-checked it by connecting the generator. So I trust my oscilloscope more than your looped signal. Doesn't anyone have an oscilloscope to double-check?
Behringer UMC204 HD Audio Interface Review
Use the inserts on the back and not the inputs on the front. The front inputs go through their special preamps (adding a bunch of distortion.) Using the inserts will bypass those preamps. Note the gain controls on the front will no longer function so you will need to manage the input gain some...
www.audiosciencereview.com
Ruhled
Maybe you have a signal generator, so feed the Behringer UMC204 input frequency from 150kHz to 250kHz, that's noise at the frequency I wrote, and have a look. I think you won't see anything, because it doesn't write such high frequencies. So your looped measurement is wrong. Only with an oscilloscope can you see it.
Last edited:
What are you measuring ?
An open input ?
Load the input and measure again.
An open input ?
Load the input and measure again.
SLAS
Member
- Joined
- Jul 25, 2024
- Messages
- 14
- Likes
- 0
I was measuring the open output, didn't think to give it a load, thanks for the tip. But it seems to me that the amplifier connected to the output of Behringer UMC204 is not such a strong load. So you can consider my measurement to be correct. By the way I measured other devices without load, and there is no noise at all, oscilloscope showed a straight line on Chinese audio digital to analog converter prozor. My oscilloscope measures up to 10 millivolts, so the noise was less and I didn't see it.
And about the load, I connected headphones and amplifier with speakers to Behringer UMC204, so there was a load, and I heard this noise with my ears, that's why I wanted to see the outputs with an oscilloscope.
And about the load, I connected headphones and amplifier with speakers to Behringer UMC204, so there was a load, and I heard this noise with my ears, that's why I wanted to see the outputs with an oscilloscope.
Attachments
Last edited:
So, just to be sure: to avoid the output distortion i should send out from my pc signals that aren't louder than -3dbfs, right? if i just turn down the volume from the rotary front panel the clipping will be still there since that potentiometer is after the DAC.
ciao ruhled, thanks for taking the time to answer me!
yes, i red the article, but i am confused since the volume output knob should be placed after the DAC in the circuit, so if the signal feeding the DAC is at 0 the clipping happening will still occur even if you lower the output knob, just at a lower volume I guess! That's my concern!
Ferrograph
Member
- Joined
- Jul 14, 2022
- Messages
- 5
- Likes
- 10
Alright - Here's a weird one for you all....
I have 404HD and 202HD usb audio interfaces. Until now Ive not noticed any issues and been pretty happy with them.
However I do a lot of work on cassette decks and vintage audio, and if I feed the UMC output into a cassette deck and try to make recording with Dolby on I get some really weird effects like Dolby tracking is way out even after REC->PB calibration. If the MPX filter is engaged then Dolby works fine, which led me to look at the output of the UMC's
After some investigation and trying other interfaces and PC audio outs available to me I narrowed down the issue the large amounts of out-of-band noise on the UMC outputs. See below screen shot from my audio analyser.
I tried all the sampling rates available and buffer sizes but nothing gets rid of it. Ive also try various methods of powering including the official power supply, powered USB hubs etc, the problem is never any different. Also tried laptop on battery to completely eliminate any ground loop issues. The inputs are clean.
The 404 shows v1.12 in the info page of the UMC utility.
Reading through this thread I see many complaining of strange noises and artifacts and this excessive out-of-band noise could be the culprit. I've made a support ticket with MusicTribe showing the screen shot.
Has anyone seen this issue or got similar UMC models and an audio analyser they can confirm the same issue? You have to look above 20k.
I have 404HD and 202HD usb audio interfaces. Until now Ive not noticed any issues and been pretty happy with them.
However I do a lot of work on cassette decks and vintage audio, and if I feed the UMC output into a cassette deck and try to make recording with Dolby on I get some really weird effects like Dolby tracking is way out even after REC->PB calibration. If the MPX filter is engaged then Dolby works fine, which led me to look at the output of the UMC's
After some investigation and trying other interfaces and PC audio outs available to me I narrowed down the issue the large amounts of out-of-band noise on the UMC outputs. See below screen shot from my audio analyser.
I tried all the sampling rates available and buffer sizes but nothing gets rid of it. Ive also try various methods of powering including the official power supply, powered USB hubs etc, the problem is never any different. Also tried laptop on battery to completely eliminate any ground loop issues. The inputs are clean.
The 404 shows v1.12 in the info page of the UMC utility.
Reading through this thread I see many complaining of strange noises and artifacts and this excessive out-of-band noise could be the culprit. I've made a support ticket with MusicTribe showing the screen shot.
Has anyone seen this issue or got similar UMC models and an audio analyser they can confirm the same issue? You have to look above 20k.
Attachments
The CS4392 and CS4272 DACs in particular sport fairly high-order noise shaping and even the circuit suggested in the CS4392 datasheet isn't really adequate for taming their out-of-band noise (no surprise because it was retained from the CS4391 with a lower-order modulator)... and I suspect many cheap audio interfaces have even more basic filtering than that, close to none in some cases. There have been other problems with this, e.g. the Arturia Minifuse headphone output managed to upset Amir's AP at lower signal levels (i.e. higher input gain).
Back when the CS4392 was designed at the start of the 2000s, this design choice meant that they could squeeze midrange audio interface level dynamic range and good low-level linearity out of a compact, relatively inexpensive chip design. I think it uses a 5th-order modulator, which is among the highest ever used in a DAC. (There were some ADC designs with 7th-order ones like the CS5396/97, which was a challenge to make work in the first place, but it's feasible because the out-of-band noise gets taken care of by the decimating filter chain.)
I wouldn't expect much help from the manufacturer in such an obscure use case. Tape was dead even back when the DAC was designed. If the MPX filter doesn't seem too heavy-handed, just leave that on. As an aside, don't you have any half-decent (Realtek) onboard audio at hand? Even a lowly ALC892 has at least 20 dB more dynamic range to offer than any compact cassette ever will, and a lot less out-of-band noise I bet. If there still is some periodic passband ripple in the ADC filter that you're concerned about, just record at 192 kHz to make it insignificant, or stick with the Behringer for recording if clock sync is not a concern.
BTW, the Behringer UMC HD series is about due for a redesign anyway. They're one of the last stubbornly sticking with a +5V single supply for their analog section.
Back when the CS4392 was designed at the start of the 2000s, this design choice meant that they could squeeze midrange audio interface level dynamic range and good low-level linearity out of a compact, relatively inexpensive chip design. I think it uses a 5th-order modulator, which is among the highest ever used in a DAC. (There were some ADC designs with 7th-order ones like the CS5396/97, which was a challenge to make work in the first place, but it's feasible because the out-of-band noise gets taken care of by the decimating filter chain.)
I wouldn't expect much help from the manufacturer in such an obscure use case. Tape was dead even back when the DAC was designed. If the MPX filter doesn't seem too heavy-handed, just leave that on. As an aside, don't you have any half-decent (Realtek) onboard audio at hand? Even a lowly ALC892 has at least 20 dB more dynamic range to offer than any compact cassette ever will, and a lot less out-of-band noise I bet. If there still is some periodic passband ripple in the ADC filter that you're concerned about, just record at 192 kHz to make it insignificant, or stick with the Behringer for recording if clock sync is not a concern.
BTW, the Behringer UMC HD series is about due for a redesign anyway. They're one of the last stubbornly sticking with a +5V single supply for their analog section.
Last edited:
Wild guess here, but it could be that the highish and up-sloping HF levels (which may be down to noise shaping?) are messing with the cassette deck bias frequency (around 85-100kHz). This could cause all sorts of oddities, including Dolby en/decoding errors. I am confident those DACs were never quantified for use with cassette decks. That the MPX filter (just above 15kHz) fixes the Dolby issue might support this idea.
I'd build a couple of 12dB/8ve or better 18dB/8ve low pass filters at say 16-20kHz -3dB around a couple of op-amps and put those in line and see if it cleans it all up. They could be thrown together, and something fancier developed if it works. A dual TLO72 would be entirely adequate for the task and testing... use whatever you prefer if it works. A couple of 9V batteries would do for testing. Design ideas: https://sound-au.com/articles/active-filters.htm#s7 and all over the internet: the Active Filter Cookbook, Don Lancaster, is an investment that has paid off a hundred times or more for me by now!
Unless your deck is a Nakamichi or Pioneer etc high end I doubt there will be decent I/O filtering for bias. I always required good LPFs on my studio tape machines otherwise random radio nasties back in the day... HTH
I'd build a couple of 12dB/8ve or better 18dB/8ve low pass filters at say 16-20kHz -3dB around a couple of op-amps and put those in line and see if it cleans it all up. They could be thrown together, and something fancier developed if it works. A dual TLO72 would be entirely adequate for the task and testing... use whatever you prefer if it works. A couple of 9V batteries would do for testing. Design ideas: https://sound-au.com/articles/active-filters.htm#s7 and all over the internet: the Active Filter Cookbook, Don Lancaster, is an investment that has paid off a hundred times or more for me by now!
Unless your deck is a Nakamichi or Pioneer etc high end I doubt there will be decent I/O filtering for bias. I always required good LPFs on my studio tape machines otherwise random radio nasties back in the day... HTH
OHtaru
Member
- Joined
- Oct 3, 2021
- Messages
- 80
- Likes
- 107
Yeah that'd work. I avoid inductors wherever I can, as I find active filters much easier to alter and tune, and coils really like hum. But each to their own... Mind you, I'm delighted to be now able to avoid Dolby or any other noise reduction too!
LangDuTienTu
Member
- Joined
- Feb 10, 2022
- Messages
- 12
- Likes
- 1
Hi everyone,
Is it good if I take the 404HD for ADC and no recording.
I have MOTU M4 for recording, but it does not support Android or iOS.
Since then, I will connect M4 analog out to 404HD, it will transcode analog to digital for my phone, for streaming.
I wonder should the audio quality be good, should I concern about low 100dB dynamic range? Are there any important things I should care about?
If you have a better choice in this price range, please advice me.
Many thanks.
Is it good if I take the 404HD for ADC and no recording.
I have MOTU M4 for recording, but it does not support Android or iOS.
Since then, I will connect M4 analog out to 404HD, it will transcode analog to digital for my phone, for streaming.
I wonder should the audio quality be good, should I concern about low 100dB dynamic range? Are there any important things I should care about?
If you have a better choice in this price range, please advice me.
Many thanks.
Shrek6
Member
- Joined
- Dec 18, 2019
- Messages
- 43
- Likes
- 40
it definitely supports iOS, it’s class compliant
LangDuTienTu
Member
- Joined
- Feb 10, 2022
- Messages
- 12
- Likes
- 1
I actually did it. It's a decent deal.
