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Beginner setup: DX3Pro+; AIYIMA A07; Wharfedale Diamond 220

eye_scream

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Dear ASR Community,
after the first HP Setup (DX3Pro+, Sivga P-II), the next step would be my first speaker setup.
Unfortunately, I can't test these components before buying, so I can only check only the technical parameters.
For this reason, I welcome any comments. :)
(for example, there is a newer and cheaper one, it's pointlessly expensive or bad for this chain, the phone's speaker sounds better, etc.)

DAC/PreAmp: DX3Pro + (already bought and happy used)
RCA-RCA cable: Amazon Basics PBH-20217 2.4 m 9.02€
AMP: AIYIMA A07 TPA3255 with 32V/5A/160W 86.00€
Optional: Amp power supply: Switched Mode 48V/7.3A/350W 119.00€ + 9.50€ shipping
Speaker cable: Dynavox Perfect Sound Speaker Cable 2 m 45.29€
Speaker: Wharfedale Diamond 220 180.50€
Sum:
Without optional power supply: 320.80€
With optional power supply: 449.30€


T50 and D.320 speakers might be interesting:
SpeakerWharfedale Diamond 220Polk Audio T50Wharfedale D.320
TypeBookshelfTowerBookshelf
Overall Frequency56Hz-20kHz38Hz-24kHz56Hz-20kHz
Sensitivity [2,83V/1m]86 dB86 dB87 dB
Nominal Capacity [Ohm]8 Ohm6 Ohm8 Ohm
Min. Capacity [Ohm]4,1 Ohm4,2 Ohm3,8 Ohm
Max SPL95 dB95 dB
Max power100 W150 W100 W
Price181 €293 €173 €
Tech data:Tech dataTech dataTech data
Measurement:ASR MeasASR Measnone

I tried to calculate the SPLs (goal: to reach 20dB dynamic range), but this calculator from Crown Audio gave me more questions than answers.
1644621478791.png


220:
It looks like the 20dB dynamic range is almost available with the factory (32V/5A) power supply (18.85dB), so I don't have to buy a more expensive power supply, and the amplifier and speaker are pretty much compatible.

T50:
I am insecure about the 6 Ohm impedance, I have not found the power delivered for this 6 Ohm impedance, and I think this can only be calculated with a rough approximation.
This speaker is probably better in the field of bass (and the T50 works from 38Hz), but also more expensive, according to Amirm, recommend the Polk T50 especially with equalization.

D.320
Its sensitivity is better with 1dB, but there’s no ASR measurement about it, so I’m not sure if this newer and prettier speaker is really better either.

As I wrote, I welcome all opinions and tips because it is difficult to make a decision without HiFi experience. :)
 

EdTice

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Dear ASR Community,
after the first HP Setup (DX3Pro+, Sivga P-II), the next step would be my first speaker setup.
Unfortunately, I can't test these components before buying, so I can only check only the technical parameters.
For this reason, I welcome any comments. :)
(for example, there is a newer and cheaper one, it's pointlessly expensive or bad for this chain, the phone's speaker sounds better, etc.)

DAC/PreAmp: DX3Pro + (already bought and happy used)
RCA-RCA cable: Amazon Basics PBH-20217 2.4 m 9.02€
AMP: AIYIMA A07 TPA3255 with 32V/5A/160W 86.00€
Optional: Amp power supply: Switched Mode 48V/7.3A/350W 119.00€ + 9.50€ shipping
Speaker cable: Dynavox Perfect Sound Speaker Cable 2 m 45.29€
Speaker: Wharfedale Diamond 220 180.50€
Sum:
Without optional power supply: 320.80€
With optional power supply: 449.30€


T50 and D.320 speakers might be interesting:
SpeakerWharfedale Diamond 220Polk Audio T50Wharfedale D.320
TypeBookshelfTowerBookshelf
Overall Frequency56Hz-20kHz38Hz-24kHz56Hz-20kHz
Sensitivity [2,83V/1m]86 dB86 dB87 dB
Nominal Capacity [Ohm]8 Ohm6 Ohm8 Ohm
Min. Capacity [Ohm]4,1 Ohm4,2 Ohm3,8 Ohm
Max SPL95 dB95 dB
Max power100 W150 W100 W
Price181 €293 €173 €
Tech data:Tech dataTech dataTech data
Measurement:ASR MeasASR Measnone

I tried to calculate the SPLs (goal: to reach 20dB dynamic range), but this calculator from Crown Audio gave me more questions than answers.
View attachment 185974

220:
It looks like the 20dB dynamic range is almost available with the factory (32V/5A) power supply (18.85dB), so I don't have to buy a more expensive power supply, and the amplifier and speaker are pretty much compatible.

T50:
I am insecure about the 6 Ohm impedance, I have not found the power delivered for this 6 Ohm impedance, and I think this can only be calculated with a rough approximation.
This speaker is probably better in the field of bass (and the T50 works from 38Hz), but also more expensive, according to Amirm, recommend the Polk T50 especially with equalization.

D.320
Its sensitivity is better with 1dB, but there’s no ASR measurement about it, so I’m not sure if this newer and prettier speaker is really better either.

As I wrote, I welcome all opinions and tips because it is difficult to make a decision without HiFi experience. :)
85dB at listening distance is relatively loud. Are you trying to turn an apartment into a discotheque?

The power supply you listed is not the 48v/3amp that Amir tested. Its 48v/7.3amps. This isn't a combination that Amir tested so we really don't know how the amplifier will perform. If the increased power from the supply can actually be delivered to the speakers, the T50s will benefit the most due to their lower impedance. But that's not something that was measured here so its unknown unless somebody else can comment.

Assuming the amp can take (at least some) advantage of the higher amperage power supply and if you really want to play at these insane volumes, the T50s will be louder. They are also significantly more money.

Also you can find some significantly cheaper speaker wire! 45 Euro for 2 meters of cable is obscene.
 
OP
E

eye_scream

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85dB at listening distance is relatively loud. Are you trying to turn an apartment into a discotheque?
No, definitely not! I tried to calculate the worst case (85 dB, 2.5m distance), and check the dynamic range.
If a lower SPL is enough, that's good news, then more dynamic range remains. :)

Diamond 220´s peak SPL: 95dB
Is this a restriction, is the speaker damaged above it?

Unfortunately I can't try and measure "how loud is loud", that's why I chose 85dB based on Amirm's video:
- comfortably loud : 90dB (avg), peak leveles: 102dB
1644667201656.png


- THX Home Theater Reference levels: 85/105dB
1644667422498.png

The power supply you listed is not the 48v/3amp that Amir tested. Its 48v/7.3amps. This isn't a combination that Amir tested so we really don't know how the amplifier will perform. If the increased power from the supply can actually be delivered to the speakers, the T50s will benefit the most due to their lower impedance. But that's not something that was measured here so its unknown unless somebody else can comment.

Assuming the amp can take (at least some) advantage of the higher amperage power supply and if you really want to play at these insane volumes, the T50s will be louder. They are also significantly more money.
Yes, you are absolutely right!
No, I don't want to go in the direction of insane volume, I don't want complications with my neighbors. :)

Aiyima recommends to the A07 a power supply with 48V/7.5A/360W, that would be the best or optimal case, but there is no A07 measurement with this power supply.

Also you can find some significantly cheaper speaker wire! 45 Euro for 2 meters of cable is obscene.
Hmm, basically I prefer the Obscene Extreme things. :p
I choose it based on the 2.5 mm² cross section, but yes, this cable really seems expensive for this set. I'll read back on what a good choice is.
 

EdTice

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No, definitely not! I tried to calculate the worst case (85 dB, 2.5m distance), and check the dynamic range.
If a lower SPL is enough, that's good news, then more dynamic range remains. :)

Diamond 220´s peak SPL: 95dB
Is this a restriction, is the speaker damaged above it?

Unfortunately I can't try and measure "how loud is loud", that's why I chose 85dB based on Amirm's video:
- comfortably loud : 90dB (avg), peak leveles: 102dB
View attachment 186071

- THX Home Theater Reference levels: 85/105dB
View attachment 186072

Yes, you are absolutely right!
No, I don't want to go in the direction of insane volume, I don't want complications with my neighbors. :)

Aiyima recommends to the A07 a power supply with 48V/7.5A/360W, that would be the best or optimal case, but there is no A07 measurement with this power supply.


Hmm, basically I prefer the Obscene Extreme things. :p
I choose it based on the 2.5 mm² cross section, but yes, this cable really seems expensive for this set. I'll read back on what a good choice is.
There is a lot to unpack here. And well beyond beginner questions.

Although I am not qualified to argue with Amir, you should also read this thread before deciding to listen that loud.


The next thing to realize is that our ears adjust to background noise. In our homes, where background noise is around 30dB SPL, 65dB will sound loud because its 30dB above ambient. In a crowded theater where background noise is 50dB or so, that 65dB will be barely audible. And in a crowded stadium, well, you won't even hear 65dB sounds. But this isn't just perception. There are physical muscles in our ears which change how we hear as a form of protection. A 115dB peak at a football game won't cause hearing loss. If you are sleeping quietly and something makes that much sound, you will likely get a permanent injury. That's not a perfect explanation but it's good enough for most purposes.

Because of this, the THX standards actually define different volumes for different room sizes.

See this post. THX home theater standards for smaller rooms are a full 9dB lower for good reason!


The reason the max SPL of the Wharfedale is 96dB (at one meter) is because of the maximum power handling. To get 3dB louder, you need twice the power. To get 10dB louder, you need 10x the power. To get 20dB louder, you need 100x the power.

If you are getting 86dB at 1 watt, you would get 96dB at 10 watts, and 106dB at 100watts.

Speakers used to be rated with three numbers: continuous, program, and peak. But they usually now just have a "recommended amplification" since that confuses people.

If you put 100watts into that speaker, it will produce 106dB. But you had better only do that for *very* short bursts for the loudest parts of your program (i.e. a bomb going off in a movie). If you were to play things so loud that say every hit of the kick drum hit 106dB out of that speaker, you would quickly cause it to overheat and get damaged. For listening purposes (especially music), your loudest portions should be 96dB (at 1m) and the speaker should only *very* infrequently be asked to consume a full 100watts of power. (i.e. a very loud movie effect)

There are two ways to damage a speaker... put too much instantaneous power (more than 100w into that speaker) and the speaker cone will move further than the mechanical limit and get instantaneously damaged. Put 100w continuous and it will get *very* hot (Think about how hot incandescent light bulbs used to be!) and the metal will actually melt.

Remember, with a "100 watt" amplifier, you can actually put more than 100watts into a speaker. An amp that can put out 100watts at 0.03% THD both channels driven can probably put out 120 or 130watts at 1% THD!

If you want to listen *very* loud (and I consider 86dB at the listening position to qualify), you will need to be very careful in your setup and probably spend a lot more money. If you are willing to tolerate THX small-room levels (which should be more than enough), the equipment you described will be more than satisfactory. Just don't turn the volume up past the point of audible distortion!

That's, unfortunately, the answer in many of these newbie threads about how to pair equipment. There's no amplifier than can take full advantage of the peak power of a speaker that can't also damage it. It has to do with the different physical properties of amplifiers and speakers. There are mechanism built into amplifiers to try to prevent damage. With integrated speakers/amps, those mechanisms also protect the speakers (except in the most extreme cases)

Speaking of which, you should consider the Kali Lp6v2s. If you can get them for less than the price of the amp+powersupply+speakers you are considering, it will probably be a much better choice.

At a 2.5m listening distance, no matter what you do, getting loud enough (with headroom) won't be much of an issue.

Also if you are curious to learn, look at those crown calculators again. I believe they do talk about being able to get louder if you are willing to tolerate "inaudible clipping" Since most of us are willing to tolerate inaudible things, that might also bring your power requirements down. But that's just academic since there doesn't seem to be a power shortage here.
 
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eye_scream

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Thank you for the detailed answer, that was very helpful!
I need a little bit time to read through your links.
 

Walter

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ABSOLUTELY no reason to pay more than 10€ for speaker cables, especially since the A07's binding posts are too close together for large banana plugs to fit.

The 48v power supply for that system is also most likely a poor value. You'd get more benefit upgrading the speakers to say, Wharfedale Diamond 12.1 if the total cost is similar. Or just save the money and buy the 220s.
 

Triliza

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The Aiyima A07 from amazon.de costs 86 euro and it includes the stock 32V/5A power supply. Why not trying it with that and see if it cover your needs. Spending more on a power supply that the amp itself, I don't know if that is the best move. Maybe consider as Walter said above to get Diamond 12.1 (or 12.2), they measured quite good on Amir review. And they can get pretty loud, based on Amir's listening test.

For speakers cables, as said above, make sure that the banana plugs are gone fit on the Aiyima. You can get some Canare 2S11F (12awg) from Audiophonics for 3,62 euro/meter if you need to buy bulk cable.
 
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eye_scream

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There is a lot to unpack here. And well beyond beginner questions.

Although I am not qualified to argue with Amir, you should also read this thread before deciding to listen that loud.


The next thing to realize is that our ears adjust to background noise. In our homes, where background noise is around 30dB SPL, 65dB will sound loud because its 30dB above ambient. In a crowded theater where background noise is 50dB or so, that 65dB will be barely audible. And in a crowded stadium, well, you won't even hear 65dB sounds. But this isn't just perception. There are physical muscles in our ears which change how we hear as a form of protection. A 115dB peak at a football game won't cause hearing loss. If you are sleeping quietly and something makes that much sound, you will likely get a permanent injury. That's not a perfect explanation but it's good enough for most purposes.

Because of this, the THX standards actually define different volumes for different room sizes.

See this post. THX home theater standards for smaller rooms are a full 9dB lower for good reason!

Thanks for the detailed explanation!
With 78dB, the smaller power supply (32V / 5A) also provides a good-looking headroom.

1644739817065.png


The reason the max SPL of the Wharfedale is 96dB (at one meter) is because of the maximum power handling. To get 3dB louder, you need twice the power. To get 10dB louder, you need 10x the power. To get 20dB louder, you need 100x the power.

If you are getting 86dB at 1 watt, you would get 96dB at 10 watts, and 106dB at 100watts.

Speakers used to be rated with three numbers: continuous, program, and peak. But they usually now just have a "recommended amplification" since that confuses people.

If you put 100watts into that speaker, it will produce 106dB. But you had better only do that for *very* short bursts for the loudest parts of your program (i.e. a bomb going off in a movie). If you were to play things so loud that say every hit of the kick drum hit 106dB out of that speaker, you would quickly cause it to overheat and get damaged. For listening purposes (especially music), your loudest portions should be 96dB (at 1m) and the speaker should only *very* infrequently be asked to consume a full 100watts of power. (i.e. a very loud movie effect)

There are two ways to damage a speaker... put too much instantaneous power (more than 100w into that speaker) and the speaker cone will move further than the mechanical limit and get instantaneously damaged. Put 100w continuous and it will get *very* hot (Think about how hot incandescent light bulbs used to be!) and the metal will actually melt.

Remember, with a "100 watt" amplifier, you can actually put more than 100watts into a speaker. An amp that can put out 100watts at 0.03% THD both channels driven can probably put out 120 or 130watts at 1% THD!

If you want to listen *very* loud (and I consider 86dB at the listening position to qualify), you will need to be very careful in your setup and probably spend a lot more money. If you are willing to tolerate THX small-room levels (which should be more than enough), the equipment you described will be more than satisfactory. Just don't turn the volume up past the point of audible distortion!

That's, unfortunately, the answer in many of these newbie threads about how to pair equipment. There's no amplifier than can take full advantage of the peak power of a speaker that can't also damage it. It has to do with the different physical properties of amplifiers and speakers. There are mechanism built into amplifiers to try to prevent damage. With integrated speakers/amps, those mechanisms also protect the speakers (except in the most extreme cases)
Thanks for the explanation!
I will pay attention to audible distortion.
Speaking of which, you should consider the Kali Lp6v2s. If you can get them for less than the price of the amp+powersupply+speakers you are considering, it will probably be a much better choice.
Kali LP6 V2 is very impressive, but I don’t know how good or stressful a studio monitor is for HiFi use.
A friend told me that after 2 hours of listening to music, he used to run away from the front of the studio monitor.

At a 2.5m listening distance, no matter what you do, getting loud enough (with headroom) won't be much of an issue.

Also if you are curious to learn, look at those crown calculators again. I believe they do talk about being able to get louder if you are willing to tolerate "inaudible clipping" Since most of us are willing to tolerate inaudible things, that might also bring your power requirements down. But that's just academic since there doesn't seem to be a power shortage here.

ON, the AIYIMA A07; Wharfedale Diamond 220 (power supply: 32V/5A) setup will cover my requirements.
Objectively. :p
 
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eye_scream

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@Walter @Triliza
Thank you for your responses!
Yes, 32V/5A power supply is seemly good enough.

Hmm, "12.1" is also a good offer, I'm still thinking about it.

The shipping cost is then easily more expensive than the cable or plug itself. I'm trying to find something on amzon or here in Graz.
What is the minimum requirement? 12 or 16 AWG?
 

Triliza

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@Walter @Triliza
Thank you for your responses!
Yes, 32V/5A power supply is seemly good enough.

Hmm, "12.1" is also a good offer, I'm still thinking about it.

The shipping cost is then easily more expensive than the cable or plug itself. I'm trying to find something on amzon or here in Graz.
What is the minimum requirement? 12 or 16 AWG?
12 AWG I'd say, for peace of mind more than anything else. Audiophonics shipping costs are over the roof indeed. Have a look at amazon basic cables and at monoprice.eu also, they got free shipping and are quite cheap when on sale.
 
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eye_scream

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Columbo-One-More-Thing.png


Not only the 12.1 is a serious competitor, but also the T50 in the € 300 price range:
- 12.1 / 346€ / ASR review
- T50 / 294€ / ASR review

Maybe 12.1 is a more sophisticated speaker, T50 performs better in the bass range:
1644779774104.png
 

EdTice

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@Walter @Triliza
Thank you for your responses!
Yes, 32V/5A power supply is seemly good enough.

Hmm, "12.1" is also a good offer, I'm still thinking about it.

The shipping cost is then easily more expensive than the cable or plug itself. I'm trying to find something on amzon or here in Graz.
What is the minimum requirement? 12 or 16 AWG?
Unless there is a huge cost difference, you might as well go with 16 AWG. That being said, 12 AWG is more than sufficient for music playback. When listening to a test tone at full power, the amp will run at full power. For music, movies, and everything else, amps run at an average of a very low percentage of maximum power. Almost no amplifier can sustain more than 1/3 rated power for any appreciable amount of time.
 

Triliza

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Not that it matters, but just for clarification, 12awg is wider in diameter than 16awg.

Besides cosmetics, available space, and so on, a reason to go for bookshelf speakers is in case you decide later on to go for a multichannel setup (5.1 or bigger). Then you can use the bookshelf (12.1 in this case) for surround duties and buy something better/different for left and right. But whatever you go for, both speakers (T50 and 12.1) seems pretty good for their price.
 

EdTice

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Not that it matters, but just for clarification, 12awg is wider in diameter than 16awg.

Besides cosmetics, available space, and so on, a reason to go for bookshelf speakers is in case you decide later on to go for a multichannel setup (5.1 or bigger). Then you can use the bookshelf (12.1 in this case) for surround duties and buy something better/different for left and right. But whatever you go for, both speakers (T50 and 12.1) seems pretty good for their price.
You can use a tower speaker as surrounds! You'll probably want to put the T50s on a 1/2 meter base if you do that in order to get the tweeters above ear level. But otherwise it should work like a charm!
 

MarkWinston

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EdTice

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Unless you have an EQ, the T50 is far away from the 12.1s... i mean FAR away. The polk that is in the same league as the 12s is the R series.
Although I was the commenter who pointed out that towers can be used as rears, the reality is that bookshelf speakers are always a better bargain. For a tower speaker you pay for two things. The MDF enclosure and (sometimes) extra drivers which improve power handling (often at the cost of vertical dispersion). You can get a much nicer speaker by purchasing bookshelf units and, if needed, dumpster diving for something to sit them on
 
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eye_scream

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The T50 was ordered on Monday, it's on its way. :/

Thank you so much for the many recommendations, I was still able to make a better decision with your help. ;)

I'm going to use an Xperia 1 III as a source, and hopefully I can solve EQ with an app (for example, Walevet works pretty well with my headphones)
 
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