Beginner Seeking Advice on Equipment and Room Setup

[Illusion]

Hello ASR family! Been lurking around here and watching some Erin's videos but I'm still not sure I'm on the right track so I'd appreciate any advice you might be willing to share.

Based on the above mentioned lurking, my personal design preferences and budget constrains I've chosen the following setup.

KEF R3 Meta
2 x SVS SB1000 Pro
NAD C 3050 with BluOS

No need for massive volume output (it's an apartment building) but I would appreciate good audio quality.

Here's how I've been planning to set these up.

Questions that keep torturing me
Is this a good set up for this kind of a room? Are these speakers big enough for a room this size. Is the glass wall a problem? Is the right speaker too close to side wall? Are the woofer locations potentially promising? Is it all going to be worth the money in the end (can I get 80%+ out of the potential of the system in terms of sound quality)?
- I would not like to pull the KEFs too far from the back wall. I'm guessing they can't remain quite as close to the wall as shown on the plan but I'd be happy if they could remain <30cm from the back wall.
- I can obviously move the woofers around in their locations a bit but not too much without starting to take up too much free space in the apartment.

Many thanks in advance for any time and knowledge you are willing to share!

 

[WOLFAGRAM]

Hello Illusion and welcome here.

Some quick thoughts:
-Great speakers those KEFs, perhaps not the best value for money, but they are well built, sound great and are beautiful (at least to my eye).
-One of the best Hi-Fi Subs are those SVSs (I would only question if you need two of them). Yes, you room is big, but those are powerful beasts.
-Glass wall could be a problem, but it's not end of the world and yes, you should try to get those speakers a bit more out of the walls/corners (especially since they are rear ported).

Regarding positioning of only one sub, here is the quick solution:

I am not sure how to deal with two of them, hopefully someone here can help you with that problem (if you do indeed decide to place two of them).

Glass wall can sometimes be fairly eliminated with a heavy curtain, but I cannot guaranty (you will have to try and error).
Perhaps some way of independently controlling EQ for both stereo channels might help, hopefully someone with more knowledge is going to help you here.


I wish you all the best and I hope you are going to have many hours of music enjoyment in you living room.

 

[JeremyFife]

Hi, and welcome
That's a very nice setup. You will have some issues in your room, but all rooms have issues - and we have to live in them too.

A few questions and things to think about. You have BlueOS, do you also have the DIRAC option?
In order to make the most of your system in your room you will want to manage the Sub(s) integration and also apply some room correction. DIRAC would be good for that.

I've heard it a lot here, and it makes sense - get your main speakers (your Kefs) sorted out first and bring the subs in afterwards i.e. get a good 2.0 baseline to work from.
If you have DIRAC, then get reading and work through the measurements and adjustments. See how you feel. If you don't have DIRAC then get a download of REW software (free, brilliant, probably essential: 'Room EQ Wizard'). Even if you don't use it yet take a look at the Room Simulation option - play with speaker and sub positioning there - it's a lot easier than moving furniture.

How are you planning to manage the two Subs? The NAD has a single sub-out and I'm not sure how that works. Others here will have more experience. In principle, 2 subs should be better at smoothing out your room response though.

A few things to work through, enjoy

 

[terryforsythe]

Is this a good set up for this kind of a room?

To me it looks to be the best option, though you may want to model the room in REW for subwoofer placement. Or, you can experiment with that.

Are these speakers big enough for a room this size.

Yes

Is the right speaker too close to side wall?

Yes, but do you have another viable option? My right speaker is in a similar placement. It is fine for background music or watching movies. When I sit down for a long music listening session I pull my speakers out into the room. I have multiple DSP tunings in my miniDSP I can jump between with the press of a button.

Is the glass wall a problem?

Not a problem, but a challenge. The in-room frequency response between the two speakers will not match due to the reflections off of the glass next to the right speaker. That will negatively effect your imaging. I highly recommend that you implement DSP with parametric EQ. There are numerous ways to go about this. E.g., miniDSP has options to fit various budgets. If you don't mind getting into Linux, CamillaDSP is a fantastic option, and it is free. I run it on a Raspberry Pi.

Are the woofer locations potentially promising?

Potentially, but see my first response above.

Is it all going to be worth the money in the end (can I get 80%+ out of the potential of the system in terms of sound quality)?

Yes, especially if you implement DSP. In my experience, Dirac Live is good for room correction in the bass region. It also will help the mids and highs, but in my experience it doesn't get the mids and highs fully optimized. The ability to adjust the frequency response with parametric equalization, as measured at the listening position, is the final cherry on top to achieve really good imaging in asymmetrical rooms. I am using DSP in two rooms, and it is a game changer. I have a miniDSP (with Dirac Live) in my family room and a Raspberry Pi running CamillaDSP in my office.

SVS subwoofers are popular. I recommended to a friend to get the SB1000 Pro, and I tuned it in his system for him. I was not impressed with that particular subwoofer. It didn't seem to extend as low as I would like to have seen. Also, he only had one SB1000 Pro, and it seemed to be a little small for his room. Nonetheless, it certainly did improve his system, and he is happy with it.

I would not like to pull the KEFs too far from the back wall. I'm guessing they can't remain quite as close to the wall as shown on the plan but I'd be happy if they could remain <30cm from the back wall.

The bass response of the KEF R3 Meta is well suited for being near the the wall due to its bass shelf.

When you tune the system to integrate the subs with the speakers, try with the speaker ports plugged and with them unplugged to see what provides the smoothest transition to the subwoofers. My speakers performed better with the ports plugged, but others have claimed the opposite.

 

[Illusion]

Thank you all for the warm greetings and great recommendations! Sorry it took me so long to reply!

I would only question if you need two of them

My thought with two subs was to get a more even sound distribution. For one, I was hoping that this would help me keep the overall bass level lower and hence annoy the neighbors less. And also, sometimes I like to listen to music when moving around in the apartment in which case the experience could be smoother with two.

You have BlueOS, do you also have the DIRAC option?

Yes, I believe the BlueOS card comes with DIRAC. That is part of the reason I liked that particular amp.

Even if you don't use it yet take a look at the Room Simulation option

This sound very cool, will certainly take a look at this.

How are you planning to manage the two Subs?

I was under the impression that a simple splitter would do the trick...? I guess that can be a problem when running DIRAC?

I highly recommend that you implement DSP with parametric EQ.

Do you mind explaining in a few words how DIRAC Live differs from the DSP that you use?

It didn't seem to extend as low as I would like to have seen.

I can see how it can be a bit underwhelming if you're coming from something more powerful. Currently I have an older regular SB-1000 and it's plenty for me plus I think the new Pro can go a bit lower and louder. I wouldn't really dare to go with anything more powerful in an apartment. Already sweating about it

One other thing that I've been pondering is how do I connect it all together? I'm mainly using a PC as a source for music and video. Typically, I've connected the TV with HDMI and audio using a 3.5mm jack but wondering if that's the proper way of doing it in this case?

 

[terryforsythe]

My thought with two subs was to get a more even sound distribution.

Yes. Multiple subs are better than one. I made a single sub work for a single listening position (my chair), but it is not optimal over a wider area. You will need to tune the subs, though, to get them optimized for the room.

One other thing that I've been pondering is how do I connect it all together? I'm mainly using a PC as a source for music and video. Typically, I've connected the TV with HDMI and audio using a 3.5mm jack but wondering if that's the proper way of doing it in this case?

The easiest way I know of is to use something like a miniDSP unit, e.g., the SHD or something from the Flex series. If you are familiar with Linux, or don't mind learning new things, CamillaDSP on a Raspberry Pi is another good option. You could output from the Pi into a 4-channel DAC.

I'm sure there are other options, but those are just the ones that I am familiar with.

EDIT: The NAD C658 may be another option.

 

[Illusion]

Looking at the back panel of NAD C 3050, it has a pre out as well as a subw. Might it make sense to connect one sub to pre out and the other to subw? Is DIRAC able to control those independently?

This amp just looks so amazing and I'd love to make it work but if it means getting another device for €500+ then it's not going to be worth it for me. While NAD c 658 is a great suggestion it is in the end an anonymous black box (similar to most amps) and some sort of a budget option starts to make more sense for me. After surfing the forum I saw some people are really happy with the value that Denon X4800H offers. And I don't even need all those channels so maybe there is something more cost effective out there for 2.2?

But before giving up on the C 3050, I'd like to give it another go. In theory, something like miniDSP could be a decent option if I could replace it with the BlueOS card on C 3050. Looking at the prices though, miniDSP Flex versions start from €650 from what I can tell + mic + DIRAC is at least 1€k total so too expensive (BlueOS module is ~€500).

CamillaDSP on Pi is tempting as probably cheaper but then again it's going to take a decent amount more time to figure out. Going to have to think about it more. Currently just hoping my naive idea of plugging two subs to the two different outputs of C 3050 directly will do the trick

 

[terryforsythe]

Is DIRAC able to control those independently?

I don't know. I would download the manual from NAD's website, assuming it is available, and read what it says. If that doesn't answer your question, then reach out to technical support or see if there is a NAD forum where the topic is discussed.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Looking at the back panel of NAD C 3050, it has a pre out as well as a subw. Might it make sense to connect one sub to pre out and the other to subw? Is DIRAC able to control those independently?

The pre outs need to be connected to the internal power amps. You cannot divert one to a subwoofer and still use it for the internal amp.
The BluOS module is the most direct approach.

 

[terryforsythe]

FYI, the miniDSP SHD Power has a built in amplifier (120w/ch), two sub outs and includes Dirac Live. It is $1,549. But, it may not appeal to you aesthetically as much as the NAD.

One moment, please...

 

[Illusion]

I would download the manual from NAD's website, assuming it is available, and read what it says.

Did that and Kal is right, it has to be connected to main in as it is on the picture above This option was always too good to be true.

The BluOS module is the most direct approach.

I might be missing something but this particular BluOS module doesn't seem to have extra sub outs.
MDC2 BluOS D

FYI, the miniDSP SHD Power has a built in amplifier (120w/ch), two sub outs and includes Dirac Live.

That seems like a nice alternative once I give up on the 3050

--

Another idea that came to me just now. What if I connected the two subs via a splitter, then move them around (as much as I can) to find where they produce the most even volume in different locations (walking around) and then once the bass levels are as even as I can set them by ear I would run DIRAC for the listening position? Would this make sense?

 

[Oddball]

The biggest issue with the sub splitter is that you would not be able to delay them separately. If you find good locations, EQ-ing them as a pair might work better than delay adjustments. But since you have sub DSP, you could potentially make this work with REW and without mini DSP so that you provide extra delay for one sub to match the other if needed. Not the most elegant solution though.

Won’t comment on NAD as have not heard it or looked it up but in similar price range you might be able to find Denon 3800H and for a bit extra Dirac live plus DLBC module which will make the dual sub setup much easier. By most measures 3800H is sufficiently transparent and powerful enough and has many more options and add-ons. Some food for thought.

 

[terryforsythe]

Another idea that came to me just now. What if I connected the two subs via a splitter, then move them around (as much as I can) to find where they produce the most even volume in different locations (walking around) and then once the bass levels are as even as I can set them by ear I would run DIRAC for the listening position? Would this make sense?

Fortunately, the SVS SB1000 Pro has variable phase control, but you would have to adjust that manually for one of the subwoofers. Will you be able to get it as good as a fully automated setup specifically configured for multiple subwoofers? I don't know, I have not tried it. It may depend, in part, on how much work you want to put into it. To get it fully optimized, I would first try to model everything in REW or similar software. Otherwise, you may end up spending a lot of time running frequency sweeps, tuning and adjusting.

OR, just get electronics that fulfill all of your needs in the first place and save yourself the headache.

 

[kemmler3D]

I will just mention that I also have KEFs placed awkwardly like this (one right next to right wall, one next to nothing) and I don't think it totally ruins it. I think the coaxial drivers, by virtue of very nice dispersion, are less impaired by sub-optimal placement. So I wouldn't worry about that TOO much. Definitely better than if you tried this with some recent B&Ws.

Having 2 subs will help you even out the bass response, so even if you don't need the full output it's very likely to sound better with 2.

 

[WOLFAGRAM]

Hello my Friend.

Another idea that came to me just now. What if I connected the two subs via a splitter, then move them around (as much as I can) to find where they produce the most even volume in different locations (walking around) and then once the bass levels are as even as I can set them by ear I would run DIRAC for the listening position? Would this make sense?

Have you considered using a simple signal splitter after the sub out and a basic passive line level remote volume control between the signal splitter and one of the subs? You can buy both for less than 100$ since they are only for LF and do not need to be of high transparency. The downside is having one small simple remote extra.

If you use only one signal splitter, the problem could arise: two subs on two different locations can be prone to creating room modes at different listening levels/frequencies. In that case, the sub that created the room mode first, limits the overall level of both subs (if you do not adjust level on the sub that created the room mode every time that happens).

Signal splitter: https://www.amazon.de/Cubilux-4-Weg...28914859&sprefix=audio+signal+,aps,213&sr=8-3

Volume controll: https://www.amazon.de/-/en/10355125/dp/B00NQ3VBS8


Cheers.

 

[Illusion]

After looking at all the recommended options it seems to me that getting a Denon 3800h (€1k) and the full Dirac bundle ($600.-) is the best solution for me. I'm hoping this system will be a relatively hassle free approach for getting pretty good sound quality. And the price is very reasonable. Thanks to everyone who helped me figure this out!

 

[Oddball]

Happy for you and hope you will enjoy. Wish I could sell my brain-work for so much as Dirac does though.

When you look at the hardware cost (which already includes some pretty complex D&M software) and then Dirac surcharge, it is...interesting .

 

[Illusion]

When you look at the hardware cost (which already includes some pretty complex D&M software) and then Dirac surcharge, it is...interesting

That's true! It's a robbery! I guess they can get away with this until competition emerges.

 

[Timcognito]

Seems crowded by the table. Circulation and table/chair placement would improve if the you swap the couch and media to opposite walls. Some table/chair legs are not going to screw up the right channel with DSP set. Curtains solve the window issue.

 

[basscleaner]

I would like to suggest the such a positioning for your room. There are some reasons to do that for good sound. The first of all, if you want to get more dense bass, it means, that bass sources must be at points close to massive walls. The second, subs not should be placed far away from main speakers, because they will blur the stereo image. The third, the rear wall reflections will weak for low range, midrange, but not for high frequencies, that's good for ears. You need to place curtains at left wall, but not for all the glass surface, only for part of it and try to find the best position, especially for negative first reflections.