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Beginner DAC/AMP recommendation for HD 600 Sennheiser's

1. Regarding UAC1, I am oblivious to any potential ramifications of using isochronous operation. Anything to keep an eye out for there?
Isochronous requires regenerating the master clock from the USB data stream.
Asynchronous operation means that the clock is generated internally depending on selected sample rate and the data stream is adjusted depending on feedback.
These approaches are sufficiently different that I'd think making a device that can do both isn't entirely trivial.

I can't quite find the article on the design challenges of the original BB PCM17xx right now, but here's another that gives some insight into the perils of isochronous USB audio:
It's really quite a pain, and I suspect the whole jitter problem is the reason why a bunch of USB audio codecs barely make it past 16-bit performance levels.

UAC2 makes use of asynchronous transfers instead, and that's pretty much required for high-performance USB audio.

Some other isochronous audio interfaces include HDMI and S/P-DIF. HDMI seems to be rather on the annoying side as well, as there have been AV receivers with gnarly digital performance due to high jitter. S/P-DIF is still a bit of a challenge but seems more manageable.
4. In regards to upsampling, I have read a little bit and it sounds interesting. Seems to offset some of the job of the external DAC to allow similar results with less aggressive filtering? is this more of a budget min/max method or something you find people doing across the spectrum of low/high end?
It's traditionally been more of a thing on the low-end side, as more filter taps meant that they took up more die area and hence increased cost. (This is also why filters have traditionally been of the half-band variety, recognized by being 6 dB down at fs/2. Their set of coefficients is mirrored so basically you only have to store half of them.)

This was arguably even more relevant on the recording side, where a top-flight ADC (e.g. AK5394A) might have less than ±0.001 dB of periodic passband ripple and a stopband rejection of 110 dB past 24.1 kHz, while a consumer-grade part (e.g. AK5358/59) might have to make do with ±0.04 dB and barely more than 68 dB of stopband rejection that aren't even reached until 25.7 kHz, so aliasing rejection up to 18.4 kHz isn't exactly super great and even worse above that. If you have a source full of ultrasonic nasties (like vinyl) that's not good news. The level of periodic ripple is concerning, too.
Oversampling the ADC to 96 kHz (or even 192) immediately makes both a lot less critical - the pre-echo associated with periodic ripple in FIR filters moves in closer where it's harder to detect, and there's a lot less ultrasonics going around past 56 or 112 kHz (plus whatever aliasing is getting through would be spread out across the spectrum a lot more).

I have a 2011-ish Dell laptop with an IDT 92HD93 codec that I thought had wonky treble unless I used an increased sample rate of 96, preferably 192 kHz. The only thing I could find that was measurably concerning in any way was about ±0.05 dB of periodic ripple in the digital filter (a value that I would have considered a bit high but not acutely concerning previously). Dynamic range and distortion checked out fine. By 192 kHz, the range up to 20 kHz is basically ruler flat and sounds like it. I meant to recreate either the filter response or an EQ to compensate for it at one point, but only got partway into that and never finished it.

In more recent times, a focus on decreased latency (critical in live monitoring) has been another factor - more taps also mean higher latency. Even AKM's current top-flight AK557x ADCs have a choice of a total of one filter that's a bit meh at 96 kHz and below (±0.03 dB of rather high-frequency ripple, 85 dB stopband).

DACs typically sport less than ±0.005 dB of periodic ripple these days, and I wouldn't be worried about that. (Still, they made digital filters citing <±0.00005 dB periodic ripple and 110 dB stopband by the late 1980s. Even Realtek onboard audio is at ±0.0005 dB level.) You can get away with much higher levels in an IIR filter, as those have no pre-echo. They also sport lower average latency (if non-constant group delay, so not ideal for the measurement crowd). They were not typically used prior to the early 2000s or so due to the issue of accumulating rounding errors in feedback filters, and higher computational accuracy has made them viable.

I have two weeks to test the headphones and see how I feel, everything sounds a kind of flat to me. I really do wish my Hyper X Cloud 2's hadn't kicked the bucket so I could compare, its likely I am just used to a more coloured sound however even in that department what is there isn't hugely impressive to me. Everything seems a bit distant which may be the open back nature but even what is there doesn't sound very detailed.
To me, HD600s sound like "good speakers with a bit more treble", so chances are your hunch of being used to something decidedly not neutral is correct. Do check them out on lowly onboard audio or your phone though and make sure they're not night and day different there... sometimes there are jacks and plugs that don't particularly like each other, and then you end up without a ground connection and only get (L-R) out, which sounds super phasey and weird. I think there was some concern about these kinds of tolerance issues with the jacks in the C200, you may want to check the review thread again.

There is a DP setting which defaults to 4 but no clue what it really does, clock stability and input tolerance according to the manual.
This is the DPLL bandwidth setting for the ESS DAC, see datasheet. It should be irrelevant for (async) USB audio and can be left at 1. This is mostly needed for sources with rather jittery S/P-DIF output like LG and some Samsung TVs where you tend to be faced with periodic audio dropouts from the DPLL unlocking/resyncing if the setting isn't adjusted. It's an issue that was noticed when AKM S/P-DIF receivers were replaced by more rustic Cirrus parts (with a larger PLL bandwidth) following the 2020 AKM factory fire.
 
sometimes there are jacks and plugs that don't particularly like each other, and then you end up without a ground connection and only get (L-R) out
You are my hero, this was the hint I needed, retraced my steps and I had enabled 'mono audio' in Windows when troubleshooting earlier. I of course wouldnt normally have it on for music but forgot to switch it back, I don't think any equipment can make that sound good haha. Its like night and day, prior I was utterly unconvinced! Not what you were directly referring to but I knew what to check straight away after reading. I actually had no idea mono could sound THAT bad, then again I have never really used it.

UAC2 makes use of asynchronous transfers instead, and that's pretty much required for high-performance USB audio.
Is UAC2 (Asynchronous) used retroactively for lower bitrates when available to the source device? I wouldnt expect any discernible difference either way but was curious.
I noticed companies like JDS Labs sell cables that force UAC 1.1 for devices that are otherwise incompatible with UAC2 such as consoles, just found it weird that the source cant fallback. I wonder what you need to do to a cable to force UAC1, as the JDS Dac doesn't have the interface to switch USB mode.

There are ALOT of keywords in your middle paragraph that I am yet to familiarise myself with, I think I understood a good 15% which is more than I expected :)
I appreciate you speaking to me on the same level despite the huge knowledge gap.
 
I have two weeks to test the headphones and see how I feel, everything sounds a kind of flat to me.
Are you using them without EQ? If so, you're missing out.
 
From a price point of view, the JDS Labs Atom 2 Bundle, SMSL C200 and Topping DX3 Pro+ looks good for the HD600.
In terms of performance, they will be about on par when listening to music.

If you are looking for top-notch performance, you should take a look at the Topping D50 III + A50 III stack, considering it's in a different price range.
 
Are you using them without EQ? If so, you're missing out.
Hey Geert,

I have heard as such, I bookmarked a page on ASR somewhere for an EQ profile. Oratories is another I have heard about. Nothing of such yet, this evening has been my first time with the phones so was planning on using them in their stock state for a bit first.

When I do play about with such, do you have a profile recommendation? I wouldnt trust myself to run any EQ on my own currently as I am new to all of this :)

Edit: I have heard EQ can require quite a bit more juice, have no clue how this actually works. Is there a means of calculating how much headroom you would need? Guess it depends on what you are trying to do with the EQ. Just something I have seen come up a few times as otherwise I would have assumed it wouldnt be a big deal.
 
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From a price point of view, the JDS Labs Atom 2 Bundle, SMSL C200 and Topping DX3 Pro+ looks good for the HD600.
In terms of performance, they will be about on par when listening to music.

If you are looking for top-notch performance, you should take a look at the Topping D50 III + A50 III stack, considering it's in a different price range.

Hey Johny!

Looked at all 3 of those pretty extensively and settled with the SMSL C200, I was going to go for the JDS Labs atom stack 2 originally but its a vampire on the wall outlet plus import fees to the UK made it a not so tempting option. Seems the C200 has plenty of power on low gain, anything over 50 would be too loud for me plus 0.5w standby is nifty.

There is about 10% more power in the DX3 Pro+ iirc however I picked up the C200 for £60 cheaper and think I like the overall aesthetics more. Regardless either option could power these headphones fine and if I wanted to treat myself down the line would likely pickup a stack anyways, so not too bothered on future proofing this time around. Treated this as a proof of concept for whether better audio is a pursuit I am even interested in, and I think it is. This should keep me happy for a good while :)

Regarding the more mid range topping stack, what would I expect in terms of performance over the current budget combo options? Anything outside of the more obvious things such as power reserves, IO and parametric EQ? Not sure where the peak of practicality ends and niceties become the prominent decision maker is all, curious to know your thoughts.

Appreciate the input!
 
Looked at all 3 of those pretty extensively and settled with the SMSL C200
Great!

I was going to go for the JDS Labs atom stack 2 originally but its a vampire on the wall outlet
I can't find the power consumption specs anywhere. Could you please share the source?

Regarding the more mid range topping stack, what would I expect in terms of performance over the current budget combo options? Anything outside of the more obvious things such as power reserves, IO and parametric EQ? Not sure where the peak of practicality ends and niceties become the prominent decision maker is all, curious to know your thoughts.
In most cases you will get more power (for example for power hungry planar headphones), versatility, slightly improved sound quality (A/B audition required), functional screens, software tools such as remote control/parametric EQs/DSP features/stored presets for different headphones/speakers etc.

This mid-to-high-end league includes the Topping D50 III, D90 III + A50 III, A90 Discrete and RME ADI-2 DAC Series.
 
When I do play about with such, do you have a profile recommendation? I wouldnt trust myself to run any EQ on my own currently as I am new to all of this :)
Check out my post on the HD650. Yours will be close if you use the AutoEQ database and adjust the bass and treble frequency bands to your preferences.
 
I have heard EQ can require quite a bit more juice, have no clue how this actually works. Is there a means of calculating how much headroom you would need? Guess it depends on what you are trying to do with the EQ. Just something I have seen come up a few times as otherwise I would have assumed it wouldnt be a big deal.
I assume you are talking about preamp gain. With any EQs, you will be adjusting the preamp gain to be slightly more negative than the highest EQ boost setting. In many cases, you can get -6...-9dB preamp values that will make your headphones output 4-8 times less power than without EQs. Think of 100mW output power without EQs, and 25mW with -6dB preamp EQs, and 12.5mW with -9dB preamp EQs. These scenarios may require powerful headphone amps to compensate for the power loss caused by the EQs preamp. Sometimes this can be called the headroom of a headphone amp, I suppose.
 
I can't find the power consumption specs anywhere. Could you please share the source?
John Seaber himself provided me the power consumption for the Atom 2 stack on standby:
Exact words were "Hi, thanks for checking. Typical power consumption at the wall outlet is comparable to an efficient LED lamp, about 10W"

I emailed their support as I couldn't find it on the spec sheet, didn't expect the head honcho himself to get back but was a nice touch. Its not impossible he misread my email, however it matches what I had read elsewhere on ASR regarding the standby power consumption, just wanted to hear from JDS direct.
Check out my post on the HD650. Yours will be close if you use the AutoEQ database and adjust the bass and treble frequency bands to your preferences.
Will take a look when I get round to it, thanks for the link.
I assume you are talking about preamp gain. With any EQs, you will be adjusting the preamp gain to be slightly more negative than the highest EQ boost setting. In many cases, you can get -6...-9dB preamp values that will make your headphones output 4-8 times less power than without EQs. Think of 100mW output power without EQs, and 25mW with -6dB preamp EQs, and 12.5mW with -9dB preamp EQs. These scenarios may require powerful headphone amps to compensate for the power loss caused by the EQs preamp. Sometimes this can be called the headroom of a headphone amp, I suppose.
Understood, thanks for the explanation.
 
You are my hero, this was the hint I needed, retraced my steps and I had enabled 'mono audio' in Windows when troubleshooting earlier. I of course wouldnt normally have it on for music but forgot to switch it back, I don't think any equipment can make that sound good haha. Its like night and day, prior I was utterly unconvinced! Not what you were directly referring to but I knew what to check straight away after reading. I actually had no idea mono could sound THAT bad, then again I have never really used it.
LOL. I can listen to some things in mono fine, at least casually (or else my kitchen radio wouldn't get as much use), but orchestral classical is just one step too far, I've found myself utterly unable to properly enjoy that. Have a small collection of some of the very earliest stereo tape recordings as a result, and I do mean early:
I assume this Bruckner (the only part recorded in stereo as part of some trials) has been cleaned up to some degree, but the quality still is absolutely remarkable for being 80 years old. This was absolute bleeding edge at the time, AC tape bias had only been in use for a few years (after its rediscovery at the RRG by Weber in 1940) and stereo was very much experimental with basic non-ideal AB microphone arrangements (but good Neumann condenser mics). A tape speed of 76.8 cm/s (~30 ips, or 16X a compact cassette) was nothing to sneeze at either. No wonder it sounds more like something from the 1950s, when stereo really took off.

Or this recording of Beethoven's 5th Piano ("Emperor") concerto with pianist Walter Gieseking, which was actually from a rehearsal so clearly more of a test recording at the time:
This is more of a historic document given that sound isn't as good (if possibly more representative of unprocessed quality), and in some of the quiet parts you can actually hear the flak cannon going that was stationed near the concert hall. Makes you wonder what became of the musicians in the next year or two... I know Gieseking was being recorded again in the 1950s until his death in 1956.

These few remaining tape reels were originally supposed to be explicitly kept out of the RRG archives but somehow made it in there anyway and thus turned up after the war. I guess a music-loving employee must have snuck them in.

These days I've got more of a thing for early digital recordings (about 1978-81); I guess I'd have been a historian in another lifetime. ;) (And no, this is just a bit of a hobby. The bulk of my music is actually from the 2010s, 2020s and 1980s in that order, and most of it nonclassical.)
 
Update:

I have been screwing around with the HD 600's and PHILIPS Fidelio X2HR's and they compliment each other pretty well. I nabbed Equalizer APO and was wondering what the general guideline is for preamplification as EQ Profiles generally do not include this.

If I am running the SMSL C200 in high gain for instance (+10db) does that mean setting preamp gain to 0db in Equalizer Apo is 10db of preamp gain total? The software is not aware of what my AMP is set to from my understanding.

I am looking for a HD 600 profile to make them a bit more engaging, which although I know isnt their design I wanted to make sure I could get everything I can out of them before deciding whether to return/hold on to them.

For the Fidelios the profile I have used bumps the low end and there is a peak gain of 8.4db I am set to -6.0db in software and no clipping so I dont think it matters.

Edit: Re reading I dont even think I know what preamp gain is, I think that has nothing to do with the AMP and is actually just for the source.
 
Edit: Re reading I dont even think I know what preamp gain is, I think that has nothing to do with the AMP and is actually just for the source.
The RG preamp setting basically is a playback level adjustment on the digital side, essentially modifying the target level.

Let me give some examples:

Imagine every single album you have has an album gain of -8 to -11 dB after RG scanning. Even accounting for intersample-overs, that means something like at least 5-6 dB of dynamic range that are never-ever being used. Kind of a waste, especially if your following signal chain happens to be a bit short on gain anyway. Then you could dial in some positive preamp(lification) and have more output level (back).

By contrast, if dynamic recordings with substantial positive album gain are not a rarity in your collection and things always go plenty loud enough with no audible noise, you'll want to dial in some negative preamp. While "apply gain, prevent clipping" does do its job, it also means that playback for the affected recordings will be quieter so volume won't be as consistent across your collection as intended.

I don't think there are any hard and fast rules when it comes to shifting gain/preamp back and forth between RG and EQ APO, though obviously it doesn't make too much sense to dial in a worst-case negative preamp in EQ APO when you're already leaving lots of headroom earlier on... you could keep PEACE running with the "avoid clipping" checkbox ticked and watch its peak meter and/or check back where the preamp setting for all channels ends up after a while.

ReplayGain... the great leveller, or the great escape? ;)
(BTW, much like many other streaming services, YT also has a basic playback level adjustment system similar to RG, although its target level is about 6 dB higher - which is why I set volume to 50% in YT vids - and it never applies positive gain. In addition, there is also a dynamic range compressor for non-musical content.)
 
Thanks Steph, that is clear to me.

My only other query would be is it standard for DAC/AMP units to have a low electrical hum even in standby state? This does not affect audio playback its purely from the unit, right around where the kettle lead meets the device. I tried it on a completely different socket just to check and its the same. This may be due to having an inbuilt PSU instead if a powerbrick, its a bit annoying but could prob get used to it in time.
 
My only other query would be is it standard for DAC/AMP units to have a low electrical hum even in standby state?
You mean in terms of acoustic noises? It's certainly not unusual for (cheaper) a SMPS to be emitting coil whine or buzzing/chirping, depending on all kinds of factors from power supply design / controller over transformers to capacitors used, with a helping of sheer pot luck. They can emit lower-frequency buzz as a result of the controller going into burst mode at low load, that shouldn't be the same as classic transformer hum though.
 
You mean in terms of acoustic noises? It's certainly not unusual for (cheaper) a SMPS to be emitting coil whine or buzzing/chirping, depending on all kinds of factors from power supply design / controller over transformers to capacitors used, with a helping of sheer pot luck. They can emit lower-frequency buzz as a result of the controller going into burst mode at low load, that shouldn't be the same as classic transformer hum though.
Hi Steph,

Yeah acoustic noises. Something I have been reconsidering is whether I would be better off settling for an interface as opposed to a dedicated desktop DAC/AMP, I initially turned off from the idea when I had read people saying that interface headphone outputs are of generally lower quality due to the design focus being split for the additional device functionality i.e ADC. I find myself in a situation now where I need a dedicated desktop microphone and I am thinking I should have just gone for the all in one unit instead. I really wish I could compare as I am assuming the headphone out difference would be negligible if there was one.

On the flip side a £140 Chinese manufactured DAC/AMP unit and a similarly priced interface manufactured in the UK with additional functionality makes me think I must be missing something when comparing the id4 mk2 with the SMSL C200, question is whether I would notice it.
 
On the flip side a £140 Chinese manufactured DAC/AMP unit and a similarly priced interface manufactured in the UK with additional functionality makes me think I must be missing something when comparing the id4 mk2 with the SMSL C200, question is whether I would notice it.
First of all, according to the label the iD4 MkII is "Designed in England | Made in China". ;) Nobody makes audio interfaces in this price class in the UK, the economics just wouldn't work out. Append a zero to the price, and it's a different story.

According to the specs, you're looking at +14.2 dBu (~4 Vrms) worth of maximum output, and according to @Julian Krause output impedance is 22 ohms. (He also got over 17 dBu out of it, but specs have also been revised since.) That's enough to get a HD600 to 114 dB SPL peak (IOW, plenty), and essentially as good as a 0 ohm output with these cans (calculated frequency response deviation is 0.27 dB, which in all likelihood would not even be detectable in a direct comparison). It's not nearly in the same league as a C200, but by audio interface standards it has high output power and low noise and should drive anything well that isn't particularly impedance-critical or an insensitive planar or a vintage 600 ohm AKG. Dynamic driver IEMs, medium impedance closed cans, AKG K7xx and 250-600 ohm Beyerheisers should all be happy.
 
First of all, according to the label the iD4 MkII is "Designed in England | Made in China". ;) Nobody makes audio interfaces in this price class in the UK, the economics just wouldn't work out. Append a zero to the price, and it's a different story.

According to the specs, you're looking at +14.2 dBu (~4 Vrms) worth of maximum output, and according to @Julian Krause output impedance is 22 ohms. (He also got over 17 dBu out of it, but specs have also been revised since.) That's enough to get a HD600 to 114 dB SPL peak (IOW, plenty), and essentially as good as a 0 ohm output with these cans (calculated frequency response deviation is 0.27 dB, which in all likelihood would not even be detectable in a direct comparison). It's not nearly in the same league as a C200, but by audio interface standards it has high output power and low noise and should drive anything well that isn't particularly impedance-critical or an insensitive planar or a vintage 600 ohm AKG. Dynamic driver IEMs, medium impedance closed cans, AKG K7xx and 250-600 ohm Beyerheisers should all be happy.
Hi Steph,

I kind of feel bad as I haven't really engaged with what you have written, but that's because I was under the impression I needed SOMETHING to drive these and the below has me doubting that....

I am familiar with Julian's channel and his videos are great, I spent the last week trying to troubleshoot why my onboard audio does not seems to be working for comparison purposes with the C200 and I remembered after reading a post that I had disabled HD audio in my BIOS years ago as I had previously using USB enabled headsets.

I enabled it this morning and hooked up the HD 600's direct to my PC as opposed to the SMSL C200 and holy hell the onboard audio drives the 600's INSANELY loud. The motherboard specs are as follows:

Mobo: ASUS z370-F
DAC: ROG SupremeFX 8-Channel High Definition Audio S1220A
AMP: Texas Instruments RC4580 and OPA1688 OP1688 op-amps which can drive up to 600ohm
RMAA Performance of 113db

I kinda wish I tried the onboard first as I dont even think I would have bought the amp, I heard so much online about hard to power etc and how even if you did achieve sufficient loudness you lose 'dynamics' and all that stuff, even on a forum like this I am not sure how to interpret that so I can only really trust my ears. Provided I hear no noise floor should I in theory be hearing the same thing? Because it feels that way, at the very least its close enough that I don't trust myself to have an accurate decision. Wrestling with the hogwash surrounding these topics is pretty stressful.

There are 100% benefits with the C200 such as low output impedance for sensitive IEM's etc but for my current use case that is void. Just wondering if I am gaining anything else in regarding to practical audible benefit, as it doesn't seem to be the case.

Edit: On further listening there does seem to be a difference on the standalone amp compared to the motherboard, seems there may be a lot more to it than just volume. That or I need to check in to a mental asylum.
 
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Only things from your list I can recommend is the ifi one and the JDS stuff. Big fan of ifi even if they do have a habit of lying about power specs just cause they sound fantastic. I'd recommending avoiding anything Topping or SMSL, heard too many stories and have experienced myself how common they are to blow up and they don't seem to care about warranties. DX3pro+ avoid like the plague, worst thing I've ever heard
 
Hi, not to highjack this thread, but my use is very close to the OP. Will this C200 dac/amp drive BD DT880 250 Ohm?
I also have hd600 cans and consider using both laptop and phone (hoping to get Pixel 8 soon) as a source of lossless (FLAC) music. Thanks!
 
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