Before and after Room Treatment

[Daverich4]

Also, reading the manual for the speakers, you have them toed in too much and the MLP is too far away from them, at least in that photo. It says you're barely supposed to be able to see the surface of the inner side, but that's completely out of view in the pic. It also says the MLP should be around 1.5x the distance between the speakers away from them, but it looks more like 2 or 2.5 in the pic. They're rear ported and you might find that moving the absorption panels that are behind them to a side location or behind you helps.

There is a diagram of the room with distances marked on it at the beginning of this thread. The picture I assume you're referring to was taken from several feet behind the MLP. The speakers are correctly toed in for the MLP. The speakers themselves are 10 feet apart and the MLP is 12 feet from the speakers. The midrange/tweeter bins are correctly adjusted for the height of my ears and the distance to the speakers.

 

[Daverich4]

What is the room height and how high your ears/microphone is? Before committing to adding subwoofers try to identify if that dip/dips is caused by a vertical room mode. Just throwing in a couple of subwoofers on the floor might leave you even more frustrated if that doesn't solve the problem.

In my room I had to put subs on both left & right side walls, on stands about 1/3 of the room height to eliminate the floor-ceiling mode and the side wall modes. When I had them on the floor it sounded great when standing, until you sat down and the bass just vanished.

Could you take a measurements either significantly closer to ceiling or floor to rule out /troubleshoot if the dips are caused by the height mode? People who are interested in room acoustics can be (weirdly) passionate about helping others, like you, to get the best possible sound out of a sound system.

The room has an 8 foot ceiling. I can take both measurements although it might be a day or two before I get to it. This is the first time someone has suggested a height mode to me. If that's what it turns out to be, what is a possible solution?

 

[tmtomh]

For what it's worth - which I understand might be nothing given the technical expertise of others in this thread - I've found that SBIR and ceiling are easily the two most consequential and easy-to-measure/hear differences in a listening room. I would recommend temporarily putting a couple of the absorber panels on the ceiling about halfway between the speaker baffles and your main listening position and remeasuring the room to see if they have any effect. That would require making a few small screw/anchor holes in the ceiling, but they could be easily patched if you decided to remove the panels.

As for SBIR, personally I've found that moving my speakers closer to or farther from the side walls creates a lot more measured difference in bass modes than any acoustic panels do (and a lot more than moving the speakers closer to or farther from the front wall, for that matter).

You are potentially fortunate to have GIK panels that are tuned to absorb relatively specific bass frequencies - 50Hz and 80Hz. If they are really doing something, then potentially you could see a notable improvement of that 90Hz null by moving the speakers slightly closer together to get it down to 80Hz where the absorber should (if GIK's claims are accurate) create some measurable (and perhaps audible) improvement if placed correctly. Now, whether moving them closer together would create any negative perceived impacts on soundstage width or other aspects, that's a separate question. Another option would be the converse: move the speakers wider apart, aka closer to the sidewalls, pushing that null frequency up higher where it could potentially be more easily absorbed. But again, there might be perceived-soundstage or other impacts to having them farther apart. This is why I resigned my self to less-than-perfect SBIR in my own room - I could totally eliminate the one notable bass null, but only at the cost of pushing the speakers so close to the side walls that the whole presentation just sounded... weird. I've been much happier since I stopped worrying about getting the room "perfect" with regard to a narrow (and to be fair, only partial) null I don't even hear in day-to-day listening.

 

[Daverich4]

For what it's worth - which I understand might be nothing given the technical expertise of others in this thread - I've found that SBIR and ceiling are easily the two most consequential and easy-to-measure/hear differences in a listening room. I would recommend temporarily putting a couple of the absorber panels on the ceiling about halfway between the speaker baffles and your main listening position and remeasuring the room to see if they have any effect. That would require making a few small screw/anchor holes in the ceiling, but they could be easily patched if you decided to remove the panels.

As for SBIR, personally I've found that moving my speakers closer to or farther from the side walls creates a lot more measured difference in bass modes than any acoustic panels do (and a lot more than moving the speakers closer to or farther from the front wall, for that matter).

You are potentially fortunate to have GIK panels that are tuned to absorb relatively specific bass frequencies - 50Hz and 80Hz. If they are really doing something, then potentially you could see a notable improvement of that 90Hz null by moving the speakers slightly closer together to get it down to 80Hz where the absorber should (if GIK's claims are accurate) create some measurable (and perhaps audible) improvement if placed correctly. Now, whether moving them closer together would create any negative perceived impacts on soundstage width or other aspects, that's a separate question. Another option would be the converse: move the speakers wider apart, aka closer to the sidewalls, pushing that null frequency up higher where it could potentially be more easily absorbed. But again, there might be perceived-soundstage or other impacts to having them farther apart. This is why I resigned my self to less-than-perfect SBIR in my own room - I could totally eliminate the one notable bass null, but only at the cost of pushing the speakers so close to the side walls that the whole presentation just sounded... weird. I've been much happier since I stopped worrying about getting the room "perfect" with regard to a narrow (and to be fair, only partial) null I don't even hear in day-to-day listening.

A number of people along with you have suggested ceiling treatment. This is my room to do as I wish but I don’t know how I’d add ceiling treatment unless there’s some way to do it without drilling a bunch of holes which I don’t want to do. Plus, I happened to be using the system when I got your post. This picture was taken from the listening position. It’s distorted because of using wide angle but it’s about 2 1/2 feet forward of the seat. Not much I can do about that. As far as the speaker position, they’ve been forwards, backwards, closer, & further apart as well as the MLP forwards and backwards. People here have been patient with this long thread but if you go back to the beginning, the feedback was that I really wasn’t improving anything in a useful way. Thanks to the help of forum members it sounds way better than it did when I started so I could stop here. However, if there was a way to try ceiling treatment temporarily I’d give that a shot. And, I’ve read so many positive things about adding two or more subwoofers that I’m kind of itching to give that a try as well. I’ve done quite a bit of reading on the difficulties of properly incorporating them into a system so I’m not going into it blind. If that doesn’t work out I’ll just get rid of them. Thanks for jumping in.

 

[marin.weigel]

@Daverich4 , I can't seem to find any notes regarding your coffee table in front of the MLP in the first picture.
Did you have it in place while measuring, and did you ever remove it in trying to fight the strong first 2.6 ms reflection?
If not, I'd suggest measuring without it in place.

 

[Daverich4]

@Daverich4 , I can't seem to find any notes regarding your coffee table in front of the MLP in the first picture.
Did you have it in place while measuring, and did you ever remove it in trying to fight the strong first 2.6 ms reflection?
If not, I'd suggest measuring without it in place.

Yes, I measured with and without it. That wasn’t the solution. I normally measure with it as it’s always there when I’m listening.

 

[Bjorn]

The most important aspect with treating the ceiling is dealing with the specular energy or reflections related to mid and highs. This only requires two islands of absorbers, covering a smaller area. You can test it using a pole that holds a pillow at a reflection point of one speaker, measure and look at the ETC.

Dealing with vertical modes would require covering a large area with effective treatment, a road you probably don't want to take. You can use multiple subwoofers instead, especially useful combined with Dirac Art.

 

[HiMu]

The room has an 8 foot ceiling. I can take both measurements although it might be a day or two before I get to it. This is the first time someone has suggested a height mode to me. If that's what it turns out to be, what is a possible solution?

I couldn't find the exact room dimensions, but calculated from your speaker placement, MLP etc. distances to be about L24'xW19'xH8'. Change the dimensions to match your actual room size.

amroc - THE Room Mode Calculator

The number one room mode calculator for rectangular rooms. Read and hear the tune of axial, tangential and oblique modes. Scientific sources included.

amcoustics.com

Some of the modes match straight on with your measurements. In the screenshot I highlighted 0-3-0 mode (Third side wall mode) on the measurement and in the Amroc Room mode calculator. Your MLP is in the center line of the room (pressure minumum between the red & blue stripes in the room3D view at the bottom).

You can also combine these with the REW Room sim (again, put your actual dimensions and positions, these are my approximations) to locate possible placements, so you don't have to move the speakers randomly. Because these are modal calculations, use the woofer height of your speaker when setting the speaker height in the room sim. Do keep in mind that these are simplified calculations, so they won't match the real room 100%, but these are better than a blind guess.

Try adding the 2 subs into the room sim and try to find a realistic location and crossover frequency to see if you can solve the worst problems. It is almost impossible to give an exact answer on the placement. It can be a very easy solution or something that doesn't make any sense for using the room normally. (ie. subwoofer hanging midair in front of a door)

You can use these as a rough guide to find the best compromise. It is a balancing act but these are the realities of small rooms, it will never be absolutely perfect, but you can get rid of the biggest problems.

And if you feel overwhelmed, take some time off from this and get back to it with a fresh mindset when you feel like it.

 

[Daverich4]

I couldn't find the exact room dimensions, but calculated from your speaker placement, MLP etc. distances to be about L24'xW19'xH8'.

And if you feel overwhelmed, take some time off from this and get back to it with a fresh mindset when you feel like it.

Thank you for all the effort you've put into this. It's going to take me some time to get through all of it but I certainly appreciate your help. You were pretty close on the room, even without having the measurements.

 

[LesterHiggins]

Not sure what the price of my speakers has to do with Room Modes. To answer your first question, thanks to the help of a number of people on this site, especially Keith_W, my system sounds the best it ever has. So yes, my interest in adding subwoofers is partially measurements and partially because a number of additional benefits that are claimed for two or more beyond correcting room modes. I have no reason not to try them and if it doesn't work out I'll get rid of them.

That's quite a turnaround from the wanting the throw in the towel. Good for you. Have fun on your subwoofer crawls. LOL I bet I could sell guys who buy obscenely priced audio equipment "subwoofer crawl kits" with special audiophile kneepads, only $750 (base model, acoustically transparent kevlar) or $1800 for leather from cows that were played Aja on a loop their last 6 months of life.

Those Sophias have 10 inch woofers and extend down to 29Hz. You already have 2 subwoofers, btw.

 

[HiMu]

Those Sophias have 10 inch woofers and extend down to 29Hz. You already have 2 subwoofers, btw.

Only problem with that pov is that they are permanently attached to the speakers. Separate subs have their benefits.

You were pretty close on the room, even without having the measurements.

Here is room mode calculator for odd shaped rooms. To save you some time I took the liberty to draw the room shape and place speakers, MLP (height: 0.9m/~3ft) and 2 subs which are disabled in the calculation.

Room Mode Calculator

Calculate room modes, standing waves, and resonant frequencies for any room shape. Free online acoustics tool with pressure mapping and source optimization.

www.vesalaasanen.com

You can scroll through the modes from the drop down menu. For changing the height of source/listener the Overlay has to be enabled.

 

[Daverich4]

That's quite a turnaround from the wanting the throw in the towel. Good for you. Have fun on your subwoofer crawls. LOL I bet I could sell guys who buy obscenely priced audio equipment "subwoofer crawl kits" with special audiophile kneepads, only $750 (base model, acoustically transparent kevlar) or $1800 for leather from cows that were played Aja on a loop their last 6 months of life.

Those Sophias have 10 inch woofers and extend down to 29Hz. You already have 2 subwoofers, btw.

The problem isn’t the lack of bass in general but is 2 large dips between 30-40 Hz and 80-95 Hz. But I’ve already pointed that out to you previously. Not that it matters but the speakers are Sasha ll’s, not Sophias.

 

[Daverich4]

Only problem with that pov is that they are permanently attached to the speakers. Separate subs have their benefits.


Here is room mode calculator for odd shaped rooms. To save you some time I took the liberty to draw the room shape and place speakers, MLP (height: 0.9m/~3ft) and 2 subs which are disabled in the calculation.

Room Mode Calculator

Calculate room modes, standing waves, and resonant frequencies for any room shape. Free online acoustics tool with pressure mapping and source optimization.

www.vesalaasanen.com

You can scroll through the modes from the drop down menu. For changing the height of source/listener the Overlay has to be enabled.
View attachment 547163

I appreciate the time and effort you’ve put into this but I don’t actually know what this image is telling me. I’ve previously tried numerous MLP and speaker locations without improving the measurements in any substantial way. Is this suggesting a different location for either the MLP or speakers? If so, where?

 

[HiMu]

Is this suggesting a different location for either the MLP or speakers? If so, where?

Yes. Especially your listening position seems to be in "inverse-goldilocks" problem spot when the speakers are positioned where they currently are. In the previous post the red & blue are pressure, white is where there is no pressure due to the room modes. On that frequency your listening position is in the no-pressure zone.

These are comparisons to you "Right speaker after" measurements and the room simulation frequencies, using the frequency slider instead of Mode shapes. Deeper notch = more towards blue on the pressure scale.

If it is possible, from the pov of how the room is used, ie. door locations, where you walk from stairs to sliding glass door etc. It might be a lot better if you rotate your whole setup so that the speakers are on the window wall:
Quick example:

Room Mode Calculator

Calculate room modes, standing waves, and resonant frequencies for any room shape. Free online acoustics tool with pressure mapping and source optimization.

www.vesalaasanen.com

Although this is only a simulation, which doesn't include the effect of the stairs on the room geometry, boundary losses etc. this could be one solution to try. If you spend some time using the simulation to move speakers and MLP around, you can find a combination where the wide cancellations are minimal. You probably won't hear the narrow and deep notches, that might affect only a few Hz and the bumps can be tamed with eq.

But this is something you need to find yourself, because I don't know how your room works in everyday life. It will be a compromise of some sort and it will not be perfect, but it can be significantly better. And again, you don't need to do everything right now, take some time off of the problem and approach with a fresh mindset.

I hope someone a bit more coherent and native English speaker can chime in about the speaker placement & their coupling to the room modes.

 

[Daverich4]

Yes. Especially your listening position seems to be in "inverse-goldilocks" problem spot when the speakers are positioned where they currently are. In the previous post the red & blue are pressure, white is where there is no pressure due to the room modes. On that frequency your listening position is in the no-pressure zone.

These are comparisons to you "Right speaker after" measurements and the room simulation frequencies, using the frequency slider instead of Mode shapes. Deeper notch = more towards blue on the pressure scale.
View attachment 547187View attachment 547188View attachment 547189

If it is possible, from the pov of how the room is used, ie. door locations, where you walk from stairs to sliding glass door etc. It might be a lot better if you rotate your whole setup so that the speakers are on the window wall:
Quick example:

Room Mode Calculator

Calculate room modes, standing waves, and resonant frequencies for any room shape. Free online acoustics tool with pressure mapping and source optimization.

www.vesalaasanen.com

Although this is only a simulation, which doesn't include the effect of the stairs on the room geometry, boundary losses etc. this could be one solution to try. If you spend some time using the simulation to move speakers and MLP around, you can find a combination where the wide cancellations are minimal. You probably won't hear the narrow and deep notches, that might affect only a few Hz and the bumps can be tamed with eq.

But this is something you need to find yourself, because I don't know how your room works in everyday life. It will be a compromise of some sort and it will not be perfect, but it can be significantly better. And again, you don't need to do everything right now, take some time off of the problem and approach with a fresh mindset.
View attachment 547194
View attachment 547195

I hope someone a bit more coherent and native English speaker can chime in about the speaker placement & their coupling to the room modes.

I find you very coherent and understandable. I appreciate your help. It looks like the simulation suggests moving the MLP forward. Much earlier in this thread I experimented with moving the MLP forward in small steps over the distance of several feet. I posted the measurements and the general consensus was that the measurements were different but not necessarily better. That’s the point where I decided to add a pair of sub woofers. As far as turning the room, it doesn’t look like it because of the distortion of the image but that pillar is at exactly the center point of the length of the room. The MLP would have to be in front of it and by the time the speakers were placed away form the wall they’d only be 6 or 7 feet from the MLP. I am going to spend some time and try the simulations myself to see what I can come up with. You have given me some work to do.

 

[HiMu]

The MLP would have to be in front of it and by the time the speakers were placed away form the wall they’d only be 6 or 7 feet from the MLP.

It could be beneficial when looking at how the early reflections from side walls behave. Window wall placement = more direct sound, side wall reflections arrive later and are more spread out in time. This is of course a taste thing and also related on how the speakers radiate sound.
Sasha 2 user manual mentions to avoid putting the speakers close to side walls, I have no experience on placing speakers in front of large windows, so I don't know how the suggestions on distance to front wall/bass reinforcement behaves in that case.
Both setups have their benefits!
Window wall

41785080072067<settngs>BEAMTRC<spview>-373.96081239368294:-409.74412726595375:0.6275343567515981<sktchpd>3%$0:-1,579:-1,579:700.7984584000001,0:395.2719892,-241.28051880000007:700.7984584000001,-241.28051880000007:395.2719892,152.2403468338553:332.556187715578,183.71088443385526:332.556187715578,183.71088443385526:365.33799771557796,152.2403468338553:365.33799771557796,660.8748923999999:-1,660.8748923999999:348.503976813218#0:1,1:2,0:3,2:4,4:5,5:3,6:7,7:8,8:9,9:6,10:11%)515.323656:232.67421160000004%(279.3898696667314:347.18654097477025%

side view: 41785082135944<settngs>BEAMTRC<spview>-258.09079491374087:-420.4799711980036:0.7530412281019175<sktchpd>3%$0:-1,579:-1,579:700.7984584000001,0:395.2719892,-241.28051880000007:700.7984584000001,-241.28051880000007:395.2719892,152.2403468338553:332.556187715578,183.71088443385526:332.556187715578,183.71088443385526:365.33799771557796,152.2403468338553:365.33799771557796,660.8748923999999:-1,660.8748923999999:348.503976813218,0:-245.49033927104014,579:-245.49033927104014#0:1,1:2,0:3,2:4,4:5,5:3,6:7,7:8,8:9,9:6,10:11,0:12,12:13,13:1%)506.37229574336044:-111.63312636110157%(267.34155840418447:-95.69774387182315%

Current setup

41785080539444<settngs>BEAMTRC<spview>-373.96081239368294:-409.74412726595375:0.6275343567515981<sktchpd>3%$0:-1,579:-1,579:700.7984584000001,0:395.2719892,-241.28051880000007:700.7984584000001,-241.28051880000007:395.2719892,152.2403468338553:332.556187715578,183.71088443385526:332.556187715578,183.71088443385526:365.33799771557796,152.2403468338553:365.33799771557796,660.8748923999999:-1,660.8748923999999:348.503976813218,660.8748923999999:700.7984584000001,660.8748923999999:428.4569916700901#0:1,1:2,0:3,2:4,4:5,5:3,6:7,7:8,8:9,9:6,10:11,12:13%)449.8984623020103:89.03334464846017%(296.9187904049376:430.05052991901783%

Side view current:

41785082277474<settngs>BEAMTRC<spview>-244.05084802904906:-468.88148026328804:0.6857237350501034<sktchpd>3%$0:-1,579:-1,579:700.7984584000001,0:395.2719892,-241.28051880000007:700.7984584000001,-241.28051880000007:395.2719892,152.2403468338553:332.556187715578,183.71088443385526:332.556187715578,183.71088443385526:365.33799771557796,152.2403468338553:365.33799771557796,660.8748923999999:-1,660.8748923999999:348.503976813218,660.8748923999999:700.7984584000001,660.8748923999999:428.4569916700901,701.7024451674438:-1,701.7024451674438:-245.66763132785735,0:-245.66763132785735#0:1,1:2,0:3,2:4,4:5,5:3,6:7,7:8,8:9,9:6,10:11,12:13,0:14,14:15,15:16,16:0%)595.0359307856862:-114.57227878545416%(268.36058975547905:-100.2304345451036%

You can copy & paste those codes to https://amcoustics.com/tools/amray
Load -> "Paste from clipboard"
More stuff to play with!

 

[Daverich4]

It could be beneficial when looking at how the early reflections from side walls behave. Window wall placement = more direct sound, side wall reflections arrive later and are more spread out in time. This is of course a taste thing and also related on how the speakers radiate sound.
Sasha 2 user manual mentions to avoid putting the speakers close to side walls, I have no experience on placing speakers in front of large windows, so I don't know how the suggestions on distance to front wall/bass reinforcement behaves in that case.
Both setups have their benefits!
Window wall

View attachment 547284
41785080072067<settngs>BEAMTRC<spview>-373.96081239368294:-409.74412726595375:0.6275343567515981<sktchpd>3%$0:-1,579:-1,579:700.7984584000001,0:395.2719892,-241.28051880000007:700.7984584000001,-241.28051880000007:395.2719892,152.2403468338553:332.556187715578,183.71088443385526:332.556187715578,183.71088443385526:365.33799771557796,152.2403468338553:365.33799771557796,660.8748923999999:-1,660.8748923999999:348.503976813218#0:1,1:2,0:3,2:4,4:5,5:3,6:7,7:8,8:9,9:6,10:11%)515.323656:232.67421160000004%(279.3898696667314:347.18654097477025%

View attachment 547293
side view: 41785082135944<settngs>BEAMTRC<spview>-258.09079491374087:-420.4799711980036:0.7530412281019175<sktchpd>3%$0:-1,579:-1,579:700.7984584000001,0:395.2719892,-241.28051880000007:700.7984584000001,-241.28051880000007:395.2719892,152.2403468338553:332.556187715578,183.71088443385526:332.556187715578,183.71088443385526:365.33799771557796,152.2403468338553:365.33799771557796,660.8748923999999:-1,660.8748923999999:348.503976813218,0:-245.49033927104014,579:-245.49033927104014#0:1,1:2,0:3,2:4,4:5,5:3,6:7,7:8,8:9,9:6,10:11,0:12,12:13,13:1%)506.37229574336044:-111.63312636110157%(267.34155840418447:-95.69774387182315%

Current setup
View attachment 547283
41785080539444<settngs>BEAMTRC<spview>-373.96081239368294:-409.74412726595375:0.6275343567515981<sktchpd>3%$0:-1,579:-1,579:700.7984584000001,0:395.2719892,-241.28051880000007:700.7984584000001,-241.28051880000007:395.2719892,152.2403468338553:332.556187715578,183.71088443385526:332.556187715578,183.71088443385526:365.33799771557796,152.2403468338553:365.33799771557796,660.8748923999999:-1,660.8748923999999:348.503976813218,660.8748923999999:700.7984584000001,660.8748923999999:428.4569916700901#0:1,1:2,0:3,2:4,4:5,5:3,6:7,7:8,8:9,9:6,10:11,12:13%)449.8984623020103:89.03334464846017%(296.9187904049376:430.05052991901783%

Side view current:
View attachment 547291
41785082277474<settngs>BEAMTRC<spview>-244.05084802904906:-468.88148026328804:0.6857237350501034<sktchpd>3%$0:-1,579:-1,579:700.7984584000001,0:395.2719892,-241.28051880000007:700.7984584000001,-241.28051880000007:395.2719892,152.2403468338553:332.556187715578,183.71088443385526:332.556187715578,183.71088443385526:365.33799771557796,152.2403468338553:365.33799771557796,660.8748923999999:-1,660.8748923999999:348.503976813218,660.8748923999999:700.7984584000001,660.8748923999999:428.4569916700901,701.7024451674438:-1,701.7024451674438:-245.66763132785735,0:-245.66763132785735#0:1,1:2,0:3,2:4,4:5,5:3,6:7,7:8,8:9,9:6,10:11,12:13,0:14,14:15,15:16,16:0%)595.0359307856862:-114.57227878545416%(268.36058975547905:-100.2304345451036%

You can copy & paste those codes to https://amcoustics.com/tools/amray
Load -> "Paste from clipboard"
More stuff to play with!

I think I should point out that at this point you’re talking way over my head. I appreciate the effort but I have to work through your earlier posts first.

 

[Tim Link]

I am sorry, but why bother so much about this reflection?

How does it sound to you?

It might sound fine as is. It might sound even better if it's treated. That loud, early reflection is within the time window where it could cause noticeable degradation to the sound. Weakening a strong, early reflection will typically increase naturalness of tone and improve perception of fine detail in higher frequencies and imaging. On the down side it might upset the perceived tonal balance and take some energy or "bite" out of vocals that may be exciting on some recordings. It basically sounds dryer and cleaner, less lively and having less in-room presence. More of the "you are there at the recording venue" than "they are here in the room" sound.

I'm saying all this now because I've recently been experimenting with treating my room's early reflections at at around 2ms and 4ms. Those are the two loudest in the first 20ms as I can clearly see on the REW spectrogram. I find that treating them is a perceptual net gain. Getting permanent acoustics placed and looking nice at the correct locations on the ceiling and rear wall is going to take some thought and effort. And money.

One quick and kind of funny trick for experimenting with blocking ceiling reflections is to balance a wide couch cushion on your head. Lol! This has led me to ponder just making acoustic head gear for shielding my ears from unwanted ceiling and rear wall reflections instead of treating the whole room.

 

[Daverich4]

One quick and kind of funny trick for experimenting with blocking ceiling reflections is to balance a wide couch cushion on your head. Lol! This has led me to ponder just making acoustic head gear for shielding my ears from unwanted ceiling and rear wall reflections instead of treating the whole room.

It seems pretty likely that some of my early reflections are coming from the ceiling but I don’t to put any holes in the ceiling and can’t figure any other way to hang something that I don’t have to worry about falling down.

 

[Tim Link]

I was just at the Southwest Audiofest and saw a complete home theater room with ceiling and wall speakers in place. They didn't put a single mark on the hotel walls or ceiling. They did it with poles connecting across the ceiling and hooking on to vertical poles against the walls. Where there's a will, there's a way.

But first try wearing a couch cushion on your head and find out if you hear anything better for it. Or have somebody hold some cushions up to block the ceiling reflections.
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