Beethoven and Bach ? Are there references that stand out ?

[RaymondFromThePyrénéés]

I am looking for a source that select the best recordings for
Beethoven's symphony orchestra and
Bach BWV 1042 among others ?
Is there a source pointing out references that stand out to be found on Qobuz ?
Thank you so much. Raymond

 

[Daverz]

Dave Hurwitz survey of Beethoven Symphony cycles is a good starting place:

Some more recent cycles covered here:

I made a playlist of what I could find on Qobuz:

Open Qobuz

open.qobuz.com

More Beethoven here:

David Hurwitz: Ludwig van Beethoven - Symphonies

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For the violin concerto BWV 1042, I'd just choose your favorite violinist, if you have one. Or start with a classic like the Oistrakh recording:

Open Qobuz

open.qobuz.com

 

[gzost]

David Hurwitz is a great source for recommendations. He loves the music, has deep knowledge, actually listens to what is in a recording and has clear standards - which is sadly not the case with a lot of music critics. He also has listened to an incredible number of recordings and his recommendations on YouTube cover the entire standard repertoire.

 

[Keith_W]

I am looking for a source that select the best recordings for
Beethoven's symphony orchestra and
Bach BWV 1042 among others ?

"Best recording for Beethoven symphonies" does not exist. What do you want? Sound quality? Performance? Adherence to composer's intentions, or is some artistic license acceptable? What are your views on historically informed performances? What tempo do you think a piece should be played at? I have listened to literally hundreds of Beethoven symphony recordings, and I can't nominate ONE as the "definitive performance" of even a single symphony. I can only tell you which ones didn't do it for me (they are mostly carbon copies of each other with little individuality). Ask me to choose between people as diverse as Klemperer, Furtwangler, and Harnoncourt for Symphony No. 3 and I won't be able to do it, I love them all.

Another example: I was discussing the merits of Wunderlich vs. Bostridge for Schubert songs. He thinks Bostridge has a small voice and lacks drama. He is quite correct. But I pointed out that for THIS particular work ("Die Schone Mullerin"), the protagonist is a bit of a shy loser who is afraid of women and eventually loses her and suicides. You WANT someone with a small voice with a bit of tenderness and vulnerability, not a confident singer with star power like Wunderlich. He could see my point, but he still preferred Wunderlich.

I think part of the adventure and the fascination is finding out what you like. I don't always agree with the critics. My taste does not necessarily align with theirs. This does not mean I am right, it's just what I like. Listen to the critics for a shortlist of recommendations, then go listen to the recordings. Form your own opinion.

 

[Daverz]

You could also try exploring the selections in the "Qobuz Essential Discography". On the "Discover" page, scroll down to "Qobuz Essential Discography", click on "See all", then "Filter by Genre" and select "Classical". The recordings selected by Qobuz seem sensible to me, if not always ideal.

Another strategy I've used when I really have no idea what to select from in the search results is to just start sampling until I find a recording that sounds appealing.

 

[TimF]

The British magazine Gramaphone. They often run articles on the best recordings for specific classical works. Often there are a few very good recordings and no one of that group is clearly best on all aspects of assessments. They may offer a lot of articles available from their long history on-line.

 

[Titurel]

Hurwitz is not a bad place to start your quest, but his favorite Beethoven Cycle is near the bottom of my collection. (I have 6 complete cycles, including several of his favorites.) Of course, I have my taste and musical experience and he has his. He was a percussionist; I started out as an organist, studied composition, and ended up a singer. Consequently, contrapuntal clarity is my obsession, not how well the tam tam was recorded.

In spite of my contrapuntal focus, I'm not in the Historically Informed Performance camp. Overly fussy performances can create a barrier (rather than a conduit) between the composer and the audience. Given the choice of hearing what the composer wanted to tell me or hearing the same noises and squeaks his audience heard, I'll go with the former. HIP, at their best, can illuminate rather than obscure, but I would recommend against starting with a "scholarly" cycle.

The reason I don't offer my favorite cycle, is because my favorite on Monday, could very well not be my favorite on Friday.

My best advice is buy a cycle and start listening. When you get to the Pastoral, order another cycle. Rinse and repeat.

 

[Titurel]

Another example: I was discussing the merits of Wunderlich vs. Bostridge for Schubert songs. He thinks Bostridge has a small voice and lacks drama. He is quite correct. But I pointed out that for THIS particular work ("Die Schone Mullerin"), the protagonist is a bit of a shy loser who is afraid of women and eventually loses her and suicides. You WANT someone with a small voice with a bit of tenderness and vulnerability, not a confident singer with star power like Wunderlich. He could see my point, but he still preferred Wunderlich.

Contrary to rumor, vocal Low-T isn't a requirement for lieder singing.

Fritz could sing the Stuttgart phone book and I'd buy a recording. (He might have had confidence and star power, but his voice was far from big or muscular.)

 

[RaymondFromThePyrénéés]

Whaooo, thank you all for all these recommendations, I will explore and try avoiding those carbon copies. Thank you.

 

[pinger]

I am looking for a source that select the best recordings for
Beethoven's symphony orchestra and
Bach BWV 1042 among others ?
Is there a source pointing out references that stand out to be found on Qobuz ?
Thank you so much. Raymond

Website (talkclassical.com) is a treasure trove of information. Easy to search as well. Great discussion forums there with very knowledgable folks

 

[RaymondFromThePyrénéés]

super thank you Pinger.

 

[Keith_W]

Contrary to rumor, vocal Low-T isn't a requirement for lieder singing.

 

[Redacted]

To see the recordings "out there", Discogs is not a bad place to start. They also sell used CDs.
The problem is the sheer amount of versions available - classical music recordings are essentially just by cover bands, and many, many are badly recorded. It's a minefield - you just have to try a few yourself (unless you are convinced by recommendations)

https://www.discogs.com/search?q=Bach%20BWV%201042&type=all

 

[Martini]

I can recommend either or both of these Bach: Cello Suites, each is excellent:

 

[Titurel]

Clearly you have your thoughts and I have mine. I would, however, point out that Lieder is a Narrative form, not a Dramatic form like opera, where a "Siegfried" cannot readily be substituted for a "Nemorino." The vocal conventions for the two genres are substantially different.

The lieder singer need not impersonate the characters within the narrative, merely provide a consistent, well differentiated voice for each character who "speaks." Carrying your aesthetic criteria to its illogical conclusion, "Erlkönig" would require 5 performers (not the usual 2): the Father, the Son, the Erlkönig, and the Narrator, with the Horse, being admirably provided by the pianist.

Bostridge is undoubted fine. I'm just saying one need not sound like a socially inept loser (e.g., Schubert) to sing Die Schone Mullerin (nor any other piece of lieder) effectively. I will confess, I prefer "meaty" voices for "Die Winterreise," as I think sounding dreary comes to them more naturally.

 

[Redacted]

I'm clearly stuck in Philosophy Club here.

But I can suddenly see the attraction of streaming as opposed to having to buy & try 15 attempts at the same piece of classical music....

With music, I tend to think "Just give it me straight, like a pear cider that's made from 100% pears".

 

[Audionaut]

Another example: I was discussing the merits of Wunderlich vs. Bostridge for Schubert songs.

Hi Keith, hello everyone,
A question that strays a bit from the main topic:
I often hear that the German language comes across as dark, harsh, or eerie to people who don’t speak it as their native language.
Is that true—and is it the same, or different, in classical works sung in German?

 

[Keith_W]

Hahahaha, despite my response, I am fine with people disagreeing with me I respect your point of view, even if my taste is different. I certainly don't dismiss Wunderlich, he is a superb singer and I love his work. I have listened to dozens of different singers attempting Schubert lieder, including some very big names. Not all of them do it justice.

Anyway, I am hosting an all-Schubert gathering at my place in a couple of weeks. For my playlist, I have selected the D959 piano sonata, the D956 string quintet, Symphony No. 9, and a selection of songs (Bostridge, Edith Mathis, Janet Baker, Fischer-Dieskau, and of course ... Wunderlich).

@Redacted there are other things you will find in classical music besides philosophy. There is also poetry, religion, references to literature and politics, references to other composers, etc. The music of Wagner, Shostakovich, and Beethoven were very political. So much can be delivered in a few seconds of music, and there is so much to listen for. I have to admit I am a bit slow, I don't always get what the musician is trying to do on the first listen. I usually have to listen a few times before I understand.

 

[sergeauckland]

Although maybe out of fashion, but the Beethoven symphonies I constantly turn back to is Von Karajan's 1963 cycle. I also have the later digital 1984 cycle, but somehow, I find the earlier one more satisfying, even if the later one is better recorded.

As to Bach, my favourite set of Brandenburg Concertos is The English Concert under Trevor Pinnock. The Well Tempered Keyboard (Books 1 and 2) set from Daniel Chorzempa.

S.

 

[Keith_W]

Hi Keith, hello everyone,
A question that strays a bit from the main topic:
I often hear that the German language comes across as dark, harsh, or eerie to people who don’t speak it as their native language.
Is that true—and is it the same, or different, in classical works sung in German?

Well, that question was debated in this scene from the movie Amadeus. Everyone who loves classical music should watch it.

And, if you are curious ... there are Italian AND German versions of "Die Zauberflote" (or "Il Flauto Magico") and "Idomeneo" (originally in Italian, but translated to German).