BDP-Pi Digital Player

[svart-hvitt]

http://www.arcam.co.uk/products,rSeries,Music-Streamer,rPlay.htm

$599 on Amazon.

Spdif only. No AES-EBU.

I don’t get it; what’s the insistence on spdif?

 

[DonH56]

Almost all consumer equipment supports basic S/PDIF but almost none support full AES/EBU. The latter is not needed for the vast majority of consumers and thus no market demand. S/PDIF could be considered AES3 "light". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S/PDIF

 

[svart-hvitt]

Almost all consumer equipment supports basic S/PDIF but almost none support full AES/EBU. The latter is not needed for the vast majority of consumers and thus no market demand. S/PDIF could be considered AES3 "light". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S/PDIF

No doubt, spdif is widespread. My point is: Why do people choose a tecnically inferior standard in this day and age?

If you’re clean slate, why not opt for AES3?

 

[Wayne]

Almost all consumer equipment supports basic S/PDIF but almost none support full AES/EBU. The latter is not needed for the vast majority of consumers and thus no market demand. S/PDIF could be considered AES3 "light". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S/PDIF

S/PDIF From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: “S/PDIF is used to transmit digital signals of a number of formats, the most common being the 48 kHz sample rate format (used in DAT) and the 44.1 kHz format, used in CD audio. In order to support both systems…”


Can SPDIF and AES3 both handle common sample Rate and Bit Depths i.e. 16bit / 24bit and 44.1KHz, 48KHz, 96KHz or 192KHz ?

To take advantage of 24/96KHz recordings stored on a hard drive, what is the limiting factor: SPDIF, the DAC / converter or? Just confused on how to maximize 24/96 over 16/44.1.

 

[RayDunzl]

Can SPDIF and AES3 both handle common sample Rate and Bit Depths i.e. 16bit / 24bit and 44.1KHz, 48KHz, 96KHz or 192KHz ?

Yes.

But.

Some (maybe most) Optical S/PDIF converters only handle up to 96kHz

The specification has been expanded, so the newest ones go higher.

"Bitrate Originally 3.1 Mbit/s; now 125 Mbit/s"

I have some that do 96kHz, and some good for 192kHz.

 

[DonH56]

It costs more to implement AES3 due to the higher voltage level and greater bit rate. And I do not think AES3 includes optical by default (? -- not my area of expertise, but I thought TOSLINK was strictly S/PDIF and not AES3). Arguing it here is kind of like the fleas arguing on where the dog is going...

 

[svart-hvitt]

As the names imply, AES-EBU is scientific-profesionnal based and oriented.

Spdif - as in Sony/Philips - is commercial-consumer based and oriented.

 

[Dialectic]

This is the simplest USB-AES3 converter I’ve ever come across:

http://www.yellowtec.com/puc2/puc2-lite.html

It fits most budgets.

It's quite a bit more expensive than the Gustard U12 and has fewer features. It's also more expensive than the more feature-rich and reportedly high-performing (such reports are not confirmed) Singxer SU-1.

 

[svart-hvitt]

It's quite a bit more expensive than the Gustard U12 and has fewer features. It's also more expensive than the more feature-rich and reportedly high-performing (such reports are not confirmed) Singxer SU-1.

Yellowtec is professional grade gear.

Good things about less features are simpler design, robustness.

I thought you searched for a USB>AES3 converter?

 

[svart-hvitt]

I'd like to find an inexpensive AES converter with digital volume control for use with the Dutch & Dutch 8C speakers. There are a couple of units available from RME and Lake People.

I've used the Gustard U12 for a year and half, and it's performed fine, despite the minor (and likely inaudible) problems that Amir measured. The drivers are rock solid, latency is low, and the sampling rate display is helpful.

I may blow $400 on a Singxer SU-1 for Amir to measure, though perhaps LarsS can help us there.

I do not view the Yellowtec's fewer features as an advantage, and I don't like that the Yellowtec relies on USB bus power, not because of any sound quality concern but because I have a lot of other gear sucking current from my USB bus already.

I think you could power the Puc with the USB phone charger if drawing too much power is a concern.

The RME box has lots of features and analog stages. The digital tool of Lake People seems to be more targeted to pure digital playback from a minimalist box, feeding AES3 to speakers. And it has a better clock option FWIW...

 

[Vincent Kars]

I do not think AES3 includes optical by default (? -- not my area of expertise, but I thought TOSLINK was strictly S/PDIF and not AES3).

Toslink is part of AES3 as well

There is no difference between AES3 and SPDIF on protocol level, the physical implementation differs.

AES3:
Type1 – Balanced (XLR)
Type 2 – unbalanced RCA
Type 3 - Toslink

1 and 2 have a impendance mismatch due to the plug.

AES3id as type 2 but this time with a BNC (75 ohm) termination

 

[svart-hvitt]

Toslink is part of AES3 as well

There is no difference between AES3 and SPDIF on protocol level, the physical implementation differs.

AES3:
Type1 – Balanced (XLR)
Type 2 – unbalanced RCA
Type 3 - Toslink

1 and 2 have a impendance mismatch due to the plug.

AES3id as type 2 but this time with a BNC (75 ohm) termination

Toslink is considered more jittery than AES3 and spdif. That’s a common «truth» among engineers, including for example Daniel Weiss.

Any thoughts?

 

[RayDunzl]

There is no difference between AES3 and SPDIF on protocol level, the physical implementation differs.

"Remember that even though the audio data is the same between AES3 and S/PDIF, they have different subcode formats. AES3 converted to 75-ohm coax is not S/PDIF, and S/PDIF converted to XLR balanced is not AES3. Nor is AES3id 75-ohm BNC the same as 75-ohm RCA S/PDIF -- it may work, but it is not the same. "

http://www.rane.com/note149.html

 

[RayDunzl]

Toslink is considered more jittery than AES3 and spdif.

TOSLINK is S/PDIF, the bits carried by light instead of electrons.

Same audio data and supporting bits, different transmission hardware.

A DIY Coax to optical converter for S/PDIF coax to TOSLINK:

"Signals for coax connections are transmitted with an amplitude of -0.5V to +0.5V, and the hex inverter (IC2) brings this to the 0V to +5V level (TTL), which the Sharp unit can then convert to light."

 

[Deleted member 65]

[QUOTE="soundArgument, post: 60454, member: 465" ....
I may blow $400 on a Singxer SU-1 for Amir to measure, though perhaps LarsS can help us there.
....[/QUOTE]

I certainly would if it wasn't for all that water between us ... ;-)

Someone else did some measurements of these three DDC's:
1. Singxer SU-1 2. Breeze Audio DU-U8 (very close to SU-1) high performance / price ratio 3. Gustard U12 - distant 3rd place

http://superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/ddc-warm-up-time-technical-measurements.4178/

 

[DonH56]

Toslink is part of AES3 as well

There is no difference between AES3 and SPDIF on protocol level, the physical implementation differs.

AES3:
Type1 – Balanced (XLR)
Type 2 – unbalanced RCA
Type 3 - Toslink

1 and 2 have a impendance mismatch due to the plug.

AES3id as type 2 but this time with a BNC (75 ohm) termination

Thanks Vincent. I had thought there were some encoding differences between AES3 and S/PDIF but guess I remembered wrongly. I had forgotten about Type 3; the smattering of AES3 gear I have around all uses XLR or RCA/BNC, not sure I have ever used an optical cable for AES, but for all I know there's an optical port on the back and I just haven't used it (been a while).

@svart-hvitt : Adding the optical interface can increase jitter since there is another circuit layer between devices but I see no reason why it should be significant. I suspect it is due more to the consumer-oriented short-range interface so they simply are not expending the design resources and power to clean it up. But, since TOSLINK uses LEDs instead of lasers and cheap plastic cables IIRC, it may just be the intrinsic bandwidth limitation of the interface.

 

[svart-hvitt]

Thanks Vincent. I had thought there were some encoding differences between AES3 and S/PDIF but guess I remembered wrongly. I had forgotten about Type 3; the smattering of AES3 gear I have around all uses XLR or RCA/BNC, not sure I have ever used an optical cable for AES, but for all I know there's an optical port on the back and I just haven't used it (been a while).

@svart-hvitt : Adding the optical interface can increase jitter since there is another circuit layer between devices but I see no reason why it should be significant. I suspect it is due more to the consumer-oriented short-range interface so they simply are not expending the design resources and power to clean it up. But, since TOSLINK uses LEDs instead of lasers and cheap plastic cables IIRC, it may just be the intrinsic bandwidth limitation of the interface.

I guess AES3 via spdif vs XLR is the old ubalanced vs balanced debate. Or is it a debate really if the cost of balanced implementation is not of relevance to one’s budget?

 

[DonH56]

Check out the specs. AES3 levels are higher and there are a few other differences. It is more than just balanced vs. unbalanced though that is at play. I thought data framing (protocol transmission) was different but Vincent says no and knows more about this than I. But I still say we can debate it all we want but I doubt manufacturers are going to change based upon this thread. I don't feel the need for it in my home system, and rabid audiophiles want all-analog anyway, so I'm just not seeing the demand for home components. The exception would be systems that put the electronics far apart and need longer runs than S/PDIF allows (10 m IIRC) but again there are other solutions and some folk are likely to pay big bucks for long analog cables before switching to digital transmission.

 

[Angsty]

@DonH56 - I’m thinking of buying a used Bryston BDP-Pi from a friend. I’ve not spent much time with streaming digital and would like to give it a go without having to use my PC as the source.

Are there other units, like the Allo Boss v2, that I should strongly consider before buying the Bryston? I like the tidiness of the Bryston solution; I’m not really interested in a DIY project.