Bass in LFE vs Individual Channels

[Alice of Old Vincennes]

Sounds like you have a dip above 80 that removes directivity, 80 and below is the boom, above is the higher pitch on a close strike that gives directional clues. Did you REW the system?

You are partially wrong, direction comes from the mains at a crossover of 80 or lower. Many subs plus mains can recreate what you heard with ease. I have had many that do and a few were not pricy. (The mains are the issue so you are correct, no sub can reproduce what you heard, a sub plus mains can do it easily with REW and a bit of work. (If the sub is capable of high output in low bass and subsonic area so you both heat and feel

 

[Alice of Old Vincennes]

With ease? Neighbor block away was frightened. Hate to be your neighbor.

 

[Alice of Old Vincennes]

i doubt you or anyone else here has been to the cic/uci high wycombe6 JBL luccasfilm ltd THX sound system , bass like no other

View attachment 467548

Thank God I haven’t.

 

[Andysu]

wycombe6 OBE bass THX

 

[Laika2]

With ease? Neighbor block away was frightened. Hate to be your neighbor.

Live in a house, not a issue. Using a Arendal 1723 2V now but have done it with ease with with a $600 sub, placement is key of course. Without that EQ can only do so much. Much of the jump out of your seat bass is actually not that low in my experience in multiple rooms and multiple systems and does not transfer outside of the house. That said there is no doubt there are limitations in condos, apartments and the sort

 

[Alice of Old Vincennes]

Live in a house, not an issue. Using a Arendal 1723 2V now but have done it with ease with with a $600 sub, placement is key of course. Without that EQ can only do so much. Much of the jump out of your seat bass is actually not that low in my experience in multiple rooms and multiple systems and does not transfer outside of the house. That said there is no doubt there are limitations in condos, apartments and the sort

Hmmmmm. Not sure response would make any difference.

 

[Laika2]

Hmmmmm. Not sure response would make any difference.

Agreed, Good Luck.

 

[Cypherdelic]

Ive once listened to a real big DIY-subwoofer in a big house. Between 20-30hz... The air was in such a move that you feel wind and see hairs and t-shirts flattering.
That was quite an experience.
My cheap subs fail to go that low and never have enough energy to do so.

So if one cannot afford a capable subsystem and also not lives in a house but with neighbors all around on a concrete building... Tzz.

Maybe a transducer at least gives some response 10-30hz without annoying your neighbors and while reaching 10-80hz... Thats not bad for LFE as intended to work.
As i said, usually theres no reason to mix ≥80hz locatable bass onto the LFE if it is not only to increase soundpressure while it is also send over other channels too.
So you wont miss that in your small flat livingroom.

Not everyone has a house... And not everyone has 600dollars for a sub. You call that cheap subwoofer? Check the price of the Mivoc Hype G2... Thats a cheap subwoofer... Some would say it is no "sub"-woofer but only a woofer But with my 16m² here and neighbors everywhere it doesnt make sense to buy 600dollar sub even if i had that money available. That maybe gets me just murdered. No joke... you dont wont to live in my neighborhood. You dont look for problems here... Poor people from everywhere in the world right next to me, afghans, syrians, ukrains, and they didnt came for fun, but for war and terror where they came from, so dont like provocating them or disturb them with annoying subbass... I wanna live.

 

[Andysu]

How do you mute channels? I guess I could yank out the cables but that requires moving the cabinet which has near invisible wheels (believe it or not) but is still a workout.



I didn't even know there were 2 orders of harmonic distortion. My old AVR could only crossover at 60hz as the bottom and I remember thinking it had pros and cons when I introduced it and set the crossover to 60hz - it wasn't a complete victory for the sub as I was expecting. Since I was limited to 60hz, I believe I finally went Full Range for the L+R for music as the sub didn't seem to provide the same quality as the speakers when playing some songs. I suspect the localization, timing, decay, or some other attribute were affecting the sound even at those low frequencies and 15 years of listening without a sub made it fairly easy to detect. I doubt I'd notice now as I'm used to the sub's sound. I'd notice it being off probably which I did one day when the volume was -10db by accident.

ether save up get a stormaudio isp32 mk3

or save up get 2nd hand behringer DCX 2496 and make an array loudspeaker management system , i use ether both depends what i'm muting to monitor within the b-chain

 

[Laika2]

Not everyone has a house... And not everyone has 600dollars for a sub. You call that cheap subwoofer? Check the price of the Mivoc Hype G2... Thats a cheap subwoofer... Some would say it is no "sub"-woofer but only a woofer But with my 16m² here and neighbors everywhere it doesnt make sense to buy 600dollar sub even if i had that money available. That maybe gets me just murdered. No joke... you dont wont to live in my neighborhood. You dont look for problems here... Poor people from everywhere in the world right next to me, afghans, syrians, ukrains, and they didnt came for fun, but for war and terror where they came from, so dont like provocating them or disturb them with annoying subbass... I wanna live.

I must have missed "The effects of xenophobia on proper integrated bass transmission." Toole?

 

[Soundmixer]

The report by Roger Dressler (famously of Dolby Labs) in that long AVSF post is most intriguing re: LPF for LFE setting. Underlining is mine. ('SSP' refers to his Classe SSP-800 audio processor)


If Roger's deduction is correct -- mixers who include crazy amounts of bandwidth in the LFE were really only hearing it with a LPF of 80 Hz in place -- it would explain why that crazy content is still there. They are expecting listeners at home to have bandwidth-limited LFE output. Which is TRUE -- we do, but it won't usually be set at 80Hz. Instead, 120 Hz is the common setting. Some brands (Yamaha, I think) don't even offer a user adjustable setting: it's 120 Hz, period.

It will be fun to try this at home.

Keep this in mind. This was a decade ago, and they were talking about the lossy codecs and the LPF. Today, 80Hz would clip off part of the LFE, as most if not all Atmos tracks have content up to 120Hz.

 

[dlaloum]

Keep this in mind. This was a decade ago, and they were talking about the lossy codecs and the LPF. Today, 80Hz would clip off part of the LFE, as most if not all Atmos tracks have content up to 120Hz.

The Dolby Atmos specifications state that the screen subwoofer (also identified as LFE) FR is 31.5hz to 120Hz +/-3db

https://professional.dolby.com/siteassets/cinema-products---documents/dolby-atmos-specifications.pdf

This is interesting for a couple of reasons:

1) The LFE channel really does not need to go below 30Hz (how individual movies are mixed/mastered is a different question... but cinemas do not require anything below 30Hz to be fully Atmos compliant!)
2) The theater standard localises the LFE to the screen... by design! (although it is spread across the screen, and the assumption is a number of LFE subs spread across the acoustically transparent screen)

Both the above go directly against most assumptions/myths about the "sub channel"

80Hz cross over was I believe part of the THX specifications rather than the Dolby specs...

THX specs seem to be harder to find online! - There is however mention in various places that THX uses both the sub (with xover at 80Hz) and the mains for LFE - this provides F/R in the Dolby required 31.5Hz to 120Hz - by using the mains for LFE Bass above 80Hz.

 

[Soundmixer]

The Dolby Atmos specifications state that the screen subwoofer (also identified as LFE) FR is 31.5hz to 120Hz +/-3db

https://professional.dolby.com/siteassets/cinema-products---documents/dolby-atmos-specifications.pdf

This is interesting for a couple of reasons:

1) The LFE channel really does not need to go below 30Hz (how individual movies are mixed/mastered is a different question... but cinemas do not require anything below 30Hz to be fully Atmos compliant!)
2) The theater standard localises the LFE to the screen... by design! (although it is spread across the screen, and the assumption is a number of LFE subs spread across the acoustically transparent screen)

Both the above go directly against most assumptions/myths about the "sub channel"

80Hz cross over was I believe part of the THX specifications rather than the Dolby specs...

THX specs seem to be harder to find online! - There is however mention in various places that THX uses both the sub (with xover at 80Hz) and the mains for LFE - this provides F/R in the Dolby required 31.5Hz to 120Hz - by using the mains for LFE Bass above 80Hz.

It is not helpful to quote or use the theatrical standards for home theater, as the two are so different that they are incompatible.

Theater subwoofers do not have much output below 30Hz, hence why there are low-frequency bandwidth limitations for the LFE in theaters. That is not the case for soundtracks on disc. The LFE on discs can have output below 20Hz, and sometimes for brief periods below 15Hz.

THX recommendations only apply to THX certified equipment. It is incorrect that THX spreads the LFE to the L/R mains and the sub. It uses an 80Hz low-pass and high-pass filter for its BASS MANAGEMENT system. It has nothing to do with the LFE channel. 120Hz LPF is a part of the Dolby and THX standards. DTS, in its early days, used an 80Hz low-pass filter on its LFE, but changed that later to match what Dolby was doing.

 

[dlaloum]

It is not helpful to quote or use the theatrical standards for home theater, as the two are so different that they are incompatible.

Theater subwoofers do not have much output below 30Hz, hence why there are low-frequency bandwidth limitations for the LFE in theaters. That is not the case for soundtracks on disc. The LFE on discs can have output below 20Hz, and sometimes for brief periods below 15Hz.

THX recommendations only apply to THX certified equipment. It is incorrect that THX spreads the LFE to the L/R mains and the sub. It uses an 80Hz low-pass and high-pass filter for its BASS MANAGEMENT system. It has nothing to do with the LFE channel. 120Hz LPF is a part of the Dolby and THX standards. DTS, in its early days, used an 80Hz low-pass filter on its LFE, but changed that later to match what Dolby was doing.

It sort of begs the question!

Are movies made (mixed/mastered) for theatres? In which case the frequencies below 30Hz are coincidental, possibly better with, possibly better without - but the mastering engineer, would have been mixing it with the theatre in mind....

Or are movies Mixed for audiophile use.... in which case the theatre experience is always going to be subpar....

Seems to me that the benchmark for movies is the theatre specification... although we typically use higher quality speakers in our home, so we potentially can get better audio quality than most if not all theatres....

However with regards to the bass - if it is mastered with the Theatre specification in mind, one does wonder how relevant frequencies beyond the scope of the mastering are? (and in fact, one has to ask the question, could the mastering engineer even hear those frequencies, given he was probably mixing to a theatre standard, and therefore using a studio speaker setup to match!)

We start getting into some of the same debates that exist around supertweeters.... with lots of audiophiles swearing by the audible results using supertweeters, but many can hear no difference, the mastering / recording suites typically do not have speakers with frequency range extending into the supertweeter frequencies, and the recordings are not made with those frequencies in mind.

 

[Adis]

I'll add: neither is the vast majority of microphones.

 

[Soundmixer]

It sort of begs the question!

Are movies made (mixed/mastered) for theatres? In which case the frequencies below 30Hz are coincidental, possibly better with, possibly better without - but the mastering engineer, would have been mixing it with the theatre in mind....

Or are movies Mixed for audiophile use.... in which case the theatre experience is always going to be subpar....

Seems to me that the benchmark for movies is the theatre specification... although we typically use higher quality speakers in our home, so we potentially can get better audio quality than most if not all theatres....

However with regards to the bass - if it is mastered with the Theatre specification in mind, one does wonder how relevant frequencies beyond the scope of the mastering are? (and in fact, one has to ask the question, could the mastering engineer even hear those frequencies, given he was probably mixing to a theatre standard, and therefore using a studio speaker setup to match!)

We start getting into some of the same debates that exist around supertweeters.... with lots of audiophiles swearing by the audible results using supertweeters, but many can hear no difference, the mastering / recording suites typically do not have speakers with frequency range extending into the supertweeter frequencies, and the recordings are not made with those frequencies in mind.

Movies are mixed for theaters. While there could be deep bass in the track, re-recording mixers don't monitor bass below 30Hz.

Movies are not mixed for audiophiles.

The benchmark for theaters is the theater experience. The benchmark for the home experience is different, and the theater experience is not that benchmark for the home.

Mastering for theaters and mastering for the home are very different. Mastering engineers for the theater follow the standards for the theater. Mastering engineers for home video (like myself) use a completely different standard when mastering for home video.

Supertweeters are not necessary with movie soundtracks. The high frequencies of a soundtrack roll off before you get to 20k, so a supertweeter would lie silent all of the time.

 

[dlaloum]

Movies are mixed for theaters. While there could be deep bass in the track, re-recording mixers don't monitor bass below 30Hz.

Movies are not mixed for audiophiles.

The benchmark for theaters is the theater experience. The benchmark for the home experience is different, and the theater experience is not that benchmark for the home.

Mastering for theaters and mastering for the home are very different. Mastering engineers for the theater follow the standards for the theater. Mastering engineers for home video (like myself) use a completely different standard when mastering for home video.

Supertweeters are not necessary with movie soundtracks. The high frequencies of a soundtrack roll off before you get to 20k, so a supertweeter would lie silent all of the time.

Yep... that was the point I was making...

 

[Andysu]

high highs THX sound system
when i apply my own THX/TAP program to this and ready to run with a lot , lot , lot more to the surrounds a lot more , theatrical mixes are great on laserdisc

 

[Andysu]

a little improvement on the low lows for the cinematic JBL 4645/c professional i can tune it a fraction lower and a lot , lot , lot , lot more to it than that

 

[Andysu]

I'll add: neither is the vast majority of microphones.

depending on mics , i know and even tested , ohms meter etc mic arrays are great for alignment currently x15 but had project idea for x24 if i can be asked to finish it , i have two cats to look after

LFE.1 i doubt you listened to it on its own , mute all other channels and listen , if you can spot it , you'll think oh don't like the sound of that ? , listen on headphones oh that's interesting