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Bass in LFE vs Individual Channels

This is why I hate subs. I really, really hate subs. The thunder I described did not resonate. It was immediate, sharp and did not rumble. Rumbling thunder occurs from a distance.
Subs don't have to be that way.... It's just fashionable among a large group of people, to consider that to be "optimal" - the same people who consider 10% THD in a sub to be just fine, cos we can't discern distortion at those frequencies...

I prefer a tight bass - low distortion and "dry" no boominess to it - a system that can do that, can do "boomy" if it is on the recording - but won't if it isn't.
 
Not the point of the discussion but here are my settings for my 5.1:

L+R : Full Range (towers 38hz min)
Center 60hz (small center inside a BDI cabinet)
Surrounds : 80hz (bookshelves)

Audyssey always recommends all speakers to Full Range for past 20 years with 6 AVRs (Audyssey MultEq and XT32) but I reduce it manually for dialogue clarity on the center and to give more power to the mains.

During Audyssey setup your AVR may report your speakers back as 'large' either because they really are 'large' in bandwidth, or, there is SBIR (nearby wall reinforcement of bass) making them 'sound' capable of lower output than they really go.

Specs that come from the manufacturer don't necessarily correspond to how low your speakers truly go *cleanly* at your preferred listening level.

I see stuff in the LFE channel on some SACDs (so just for music, no video). I wonder what the intent of the mastering engineer was there?
On multichannel music discs*, LFE channel content is the wild west. Dolby spec says it should be limited to 120 Hz, but in practice there are no standards universally adhered to.
It can be full-range (20 Hz-20kHz) or it can be bandwidth limited. It can be from one instrument or many. Even vocals.

What actually comes out of the 'LFE jack' to the subwoofer (if there is one) is always bandwidth limited. The limitation can come from several points.
- bass managed content from other channels deemed 'small' (limited to whatever is below the selected crossover point)
- limit in the LFE channel content itself (see above, e g. Dolby AC3 LFE track content 'on the disc' goes up to 120 Hz )
- the 'LPF for LFE' (low pass filter for LFE track content) setting of the AVR. This allows up to 250 Hz bandwith in the AVRs I've seen.
- the lowpass filter in the subwoofer itself. All of them offer one, sometimes they are defeatable, otherwise, it's recommended to set them as high as possible since its very likley there are already LPFs in place upstream.


*Having an LFE channel for music discs is pointless in the first place, except for very few cases where explosion-like or extremely loud low bass content is part of the music.
But manufacturers caved to stupid consumer complaints that 'nothing' was coming out of their pricey subwoofers in their improperly bass-managed systems.
 
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@techsamurai
Summary:
1. LFE channel is separate channel/recording, which content is not present in front L-C-R and surround channels/recordings. You need an active subwoofer to take full advantage of the LFE channel.
not necessarily true in practice, for multichannel music releases
 
So what is really happening when I set my LR to Full Range and LFE to LFE+Main?

DENON's answer is a garble. Ed Mullin provided a comprehensive answer some years ago, I've revised and added some bracketed clarifications.
  1. “Here is the best way to understand Small/Large , LFE/LFE+Main and the LPF for LFE.
    1. 'Small' applies a 12 dB/octave high pass to the speaker at the selected crossover frequency. [i.e. the speaker only receives frequencies above that crossover]
    2. 'Large' [aka 'Full Range' or 'Full band'] sends that [speaker] the full-range signal of the corresponding source channel.
    3. 'Small' [applies a 24 dB/octave low pass filter at the selected crossover frequency to that channel and sends the lowpassed content , aka 'redirected bass', to the subwoofer output, where it is combined with LFE content of the source, if there is any]
    4. [In the LFE vs LFE+Main subwoofer setting] 'LFE' means the subwoofer gets the LFE source content plus redirected bass [i.e. 24db/octave lowpassed signal] from any channels set to 'Small'. If no channels are set to 'Small', the subwoofer is getting only the LFE content
    5. LFE+Main : [for any speaker set to 'Large', it receives the channel's full range signal as per (2) above. But the same signal is also low-passed at 24db/octave at a selected crossover frequency (see below) and sent to the subwoofer, where it is combined with a) any LFE content in the source and b) redirected bass from speakers set to 'Small'.]
    6. [All speakers set to Small (regardless of apparent 'size' ) and subwoofer set to 'LFE' is the most commonly advised setting, for a variety of reasons ]


    Notes:
    If the mains are set to 'Large' and the subwoofer mode is set to 'LFE', there is no crossover selection available for the mains.
    If the mains are set to 'Large' and 'LFE+Main' is selected, then the ‘crossover’ selection becomes available for the mains. This really isn’t a true ‘crossover’ at all, because the mains are still being sent a full-range signal. What the ‘crossover’ becomes when LFE+Main is selected is the low pass filter setting for the duplicate signal being sent to the subwoofer. In this sense, the user can select the amount of ‘overlap’ between the mains and the subwoofer.

    This distinction is not well understood by most enthusiasts, nor is it well communicated by the AVR GUI menu. It suggests or implies a crossover is still being applied to the mains when they are set to Large, when in reality that is not the case.

    The LPF for LFE is the low pass filter setting for output of the LFE source contents. Normally this is set to 120 Hz, since that is typically the upper limit [of LFE content created] by DVD mixing engineers [if they follow Dolby spec].”
 
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The LPF for LFE is the low pass filter setting for the LFE channel.

So that does not explain if it is just working "cut-off" and sends it to nirvana or "crossover to fronts"...
I assume nirvana. But it should not affect LFE quality.

If I understand you correctly (which is hard at this point, you have made so many posts on this thread) you are asking what happens to the source LFE content that is filtered out by the 'LPF for LFE' setting. Keeping in mind the LPF for LFE is not a 'brickwall', but gradual, I would say in the normal case, where LFE content is NOT being redirected to 'large' channels: LFE content that is completely filtered out (i.e. so far above 'LPF for LFE' cutoff that it really is rendered inaudible by the gradual filter) may, or may not, be included in other channels in the mix by the original mix engineer -- if not, it's just gone, if so, it's still 'there' somewhere, coming from speakers rather than the sub.

Content that is lowered by the filter but not to the point of inaudibility is still of course 'there' in the subwoofer output. It's not lost.

In fact lowering the LPF of LFE might increase quality depending on the sub.
see https://www.avsforum.com/posts/21782993/

and scroll to c)5. What is the LPF of LFE and what should it be set to?

It does contains an erroneous claim about LFE ('.1') audio track content : "The content is authored up to 120Hz so the only setting that is correct for this is 120Hz" (in fact and alas, content authored well above 120 Hz is not uncommon in LFE of surround music releases), but it goes on to usefully cite Roger Dressler and Mark Seaton as to why 120 may not be the best setting for LPF for LFE.
 
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Let me tell you that these sound pressure levels of the LFE are intended originally to apply vibrating bass effects in big cinematic rooms without the need of setting up a transducer every seat for practical reason.

Thanks, I already knew what LFE was invented for.

In your small room there is not only crossover signals from sattelites adding up that level,
Not only there are roommodes resonating to a lot higher levels, but there is another effect you probably have heard of:
The pressure chamber effect.
Have i mentioned loudnessplus from thx which presets the LFE at high volume no matter younsetup low volume?

This alltogether can make your subwoofers easily and unintendetly cause serious permanent hearing damage to your ears.
No joke.

Dolbys LFE is high likely the worlds biggest sinfgle cause for tinitus and inaudibility... Not in the theaters and cinema, but at your home because they treat it like if it were a real big cinema with those hardware.

Um, I doubt that. I don't play my system at reference level typically.
 
Even regarding your health, transducers dont put your ears at danger like a sub can do.
If you like bass that much that you sometimes get close to tinitus... Maybe a transducer saves you audibility on the long term ;)

You hardly find 120hz cinematic effects in the LFE, usually they are 20-80.
You would feel 20-35hz present great increase quality but you wont miss 80-120hz.
Most surrounds and centers should allow lower crossover than 80hz...
Yes it theoretically could be presented via LFE higher than the transducer can play.
But you can still setup the LPF for the LFE lower... That should transfer anything higher to the fronts, and since we can perceive the dir direction of those upperbass it is better to bring that 80-120hz in into the F-wavefront instead to the transducer or various position or you might locate that.
i doubt you or anyone else here has been to the cic/uci high wycombe6 JBL luccasfilm ltd THX sound system , bass like no other

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It does contains an erroneous claim about LFE ('.1') audio track content : "The content is authored up to 120Hz so the only setting that is correct for this is 120Hz" (in fact and alas, content well above 120 Hz is not uncommon in LFE of surround music releases), but it goes on to usefully cite Roger Dressler and Mark Seaton as to why 120 may not be the best setting for LPF for LFE.
When i think about that... It doesnt make sense to me at all.
Because the LFE channel simply has no fixed position.... Theres a default in the dolbystandard but thats optional and the content creator does not now where the consumer sub is positioned.

So if a surround-music content-creator creates ≥120hz - locatable - bass on the LFE channel, he presents it - knowingly - somewhere locatable but random.
Does that make sense to you?

If you were that surround-content-creator producing valuable surround-music and therefore you got the knowledge that ≥120hz... And even ≥80hz (some swear 60hz) is locatable and you also surely know that there is front,center and surround channel available on known approximate position that definetly can play ≥120hz without a subwoofer...

Tell me why would you put that locatable frequency somewhere unkown...
I would call that a "bad surround content", cause the creator did not take the appropriate channel.
I dont wanna hear random positioned bass, thats not why i would listen to surround-music.

A good surround-content-creator should mix that locatable frequencies into a virtual position with front and surround... BECAUSE it is locatable it needs a direction.
In case you dont want it to have direction, you still not want LFE output that but front and surround channels equally to displace it in location through all directions.

Nothing else makes sense.

I see no case when a surround-content creator or a movie-creator should use the LFE, except it is only to provide MORE bass level or non-locatable shaking effects, so additionally on the other channels higher than crossover TOO or only very low on the LFE alone. in that case i absolutely dont mind it when that extra-energy ≥120hz is not presented on the LFE additionally where my transducer is dedicated only up to 80hz with my normal living room size. Still that same LFE signal is high on volume on my fronts, my preout-frontsubs, my surrounds and anything that is setup that low frequency... Otherwise the creator has NO reason to use the LFE.

See.

Please read this article to understand why we have LFE and how it works:

Also dont forget that shaking and vibrating effects usually occur over a broad integral of the lf-spectrum. often beeing kinda pulsed, often enough it is more or less just like a flattering pink noise.
It contains that much to maximise the effect... But having it only 10-80hz with a transducer instead of 35-120hz with a cheap sub (four times the price of a transducer still minimum) doesnt minimise the effect... It maximises it still as the lower frequencies and the intensity of the transducer more than compensate that upper spectral gap.

Now please dont tell me that his is not the way it is meant to be because it lacks some detail of the original vibrance spectrum, because that doesnt matter, just that you have intense vibration at that whatever pulse. These effect never come solely ≥120hz.

In music this is basically for harmonic-overtones to make that music bass work on smaller speakers at all, or you wont hear it on a portable bluetooth box. But there is no real reason to put that ALONE on the LFE, since you also should know as the creator that the most Avr have it set 120hz by default, WHY the hell would you do that when have three other channels available to present ≥120hz from any direction or even no direction through sending it through all spatial directions (channels) evenly.

Your quote is absolute non-sense to me.
 
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As I said, I already understand why we have LFE and how it works. I've been familiar with that hometheatrehifi article since its publication in 2007. I'm well aware of, and for years on audio forums have commented repeatedly on the peculiarities and occasional absurdity of how the LFE channel is used in home audio.

So I don't feel a need to engage you or your strange cadences on 'the original vibrance spectrum' and 'harmkit overtones' further.
 
Harmonic overtones, sry. On synth-generated-bass they have to be modulated onto the low-frequencies so that you can hear thoss otherwise steictly pure low-frequencies when the speaker are in fact not good enough to play that. This is common to pretty much all modern stereo-music for compatibility reasons.

Theoretically the content-creators dont need that for surround-music content, as this is not meant to be played on small bluetooth speakers, kitchen-radios, or smaller carradios, such things... I mean it is explicitely for designed "homecinema/theater"... The creator could try avoiding those autogenerated harmonic-overtones... And at least stop mixing those to the LFE channel for no logic reasons especially if the the instrument has a real direction somewhere.

One should not put ≥120hz parts of the soundevents from a kickdrum onto the LFE.... Because that way it gets two directions locatable and that is unpleasemtly when it should be a instrument.

Only mixing it to the LFE because it is a sub-device and the creator thinks all lowfrequencies 120-250hz sound better with a sub is totally idiotic, but thatshigh likely the foolish reason why those frequencies might landed there ruining the experience of surriund sound. ;)
 
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The report by Roger Dressler (famously of Dolby Labs) in that long AVSF post is most intriguing re: LPF for LFE setting. Underlining is mine. ('SSP' refers to his Classe SSP-800 audio processor)
Further comment from Roger Dressler explains the thinking behind a setting of 80Hz as opposed to the more usually recommended 120Hz:

"I was recently noticing that my well tuned room sounded great on 2-ch programs but occasionally had excessive/plump bass on some 5.1 music discs. Turns out many music discs do not have well filtered LFE tracks--easily seen using REW's spectrum analyzer. It also turned out that my SSP did not filter the LFE at 120 Hz or the like.

I did some experiments comparing SACD/DVD-A music recordings with the LFE unfiltered, or filtered at 120 or 80 Hz, and compared the results with the 2-ch mixes on those discs. It was pretty obvious that the mixers were listening with a monitor system using an LFE sub filtered at 80 Hz. The match was obviously right, whereas at 120 Hz it was not even close, and not very pleasant. They filtered the LFE sound in the room rather than the signal feeding the recorder.

I did a similar survey of movie soundtracks, and REW showed all were well filtered near 120 Hz at max. Some DTS movies were rolled off lower, like 90 Hz. In listening to these movies with 80 and 120 Hz LFE filters, it was possible in direct A/B to sometimes hear a difference only with the 120 Hz LFE tracks, but using either the 80 or 120 Hz filters sounded great and sounded correct. The impression was that the 80 Hz setting yielded "deeper, tighter" bass than the 120 Hz, and this has been a major reported difference between Dolby and DTS soundtracks since the days of laser discs. Interestingly, DTS HDMA does not employ the 90 Hz filter, so that "advantage" is now gone, even for the core lossy DTS track.

I have my SSP's LFE set for 80 Hz all the time (F/W updated!). It makes a huge benefit for 5.1 music, and a small benefit for movies, so it all sounds great now."

If Roger's deduction is correct -- mixers who include crazy amounts of bandwidth in the LFE were really only hearing it with a LPF of 80 Hz in place -- it would explain why that crazy content is still there. They are expecting listeners at home to have bandwidth-limited LFE output. Which is TRUE -- we do, but it won't usually be set at 80Hz. Instead, 120 Hz is the common setting. Some brands (Yamaha, I think) don't even offer a user adjustable setting: it's 120 Hz, period.

It will be fun to try this at home.
 
cat 160 does amazing professional cinema Dolby bass like no other in THX here , JBL cinema subs are hungry for more i actual prefer Dolby Stereo OBE is OBE is wondrous

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Im also aware that with really big subwoofers there are kinda "wind" effects that cannot be presented with a transducer.
Buuuuuut.... Also not with a "cheap" sub like the Mivoc Hype G2 or the Teufel T10.
These effects are pretty hardware demanding and you hardly find places that are able to present those, like that cinema of course.

Sure i know.... Still transducers are cost effectively, energy effectifly, easy to setup, not conflicting audio in any way in terms of roomodes, wall reflections, additions, deletions, interferences and whats best: at least you can feel effects 10-30hz present while a cheap sub simply presents nothing.

We all now that 10-30hz is quite harder to output as sonicwaves than 120-250hz.... Any kitchenradio can play that ;).... With the monoamp for the transducer avery small passive bassspeaker For ≥80hz could also be added of that really is an issue.
 
The report by Roger Dressler (famously of Dolby Labs) in that long AVSF post is most intriguing re: LPF for LFE setting. Underlining is mine. ('SSP' refers to his Classe SSP-800 audio processor)


If Roger's deduction is correct -- mixers who include crazy amounts of bandwidth in the LFE were really only hearing it with a LPF of 80 Hz in place -- it would explain why that crazy content is still there. They are expecting listeners at home to have bandwidth-limited LFE output. Which is TRUE -- we do, but it won't usually be set at 80Hz. Instead, 120 Hz is the common setting. Some brands (Yamaha, I think) don't even offer a user adjustable setting: it's 120 Hz, period.

It will be fun to try this at home.
The amount of amateurs is too pretty damn high and increasing.
I dont mean to mean...
What I mean is, when I dont have a clue that would have been exactly what i would have done: well "THX" is great, great surrround funcrions, they feature THX Select 80hz and ultra 60hz with certified Subwoofers, so i thought maybe choosing that THX crossover for my monitor would be great.
I havent crosschecked anything what i do on a reproductive consumer system to verify my quality... I dont care. You dont like it then dont buy it.
Having an important meeting with Molly now then i go produce more crab without knowledge... See people enjoy it and buy it no matter the quality is nightmare...
Audiophiles everywhere... They busy finding a better sounding cable to increase their prostudiosound to the next level.

So to make a bit fun out of it.
Were all just humans and therefor a highly compressed pack of flaws believing to be the most intelligent species in the universe.... Our speakers in 20years might be higher than 1% efficiency turning electrical power into soundwaves.... Were amateurs. We have only these crap-speakertech. :)))


Na... The biggest flaw is that this species made it somehow to survive so long under the circumstances... We should have already wiped out all life on this planer, sir... But were pros in procrastinating the inevitable day by day. Its a wonder. Just imagine how many nuclear rockets are pointed at your city right now... Its a wonder that we not made a mistake with that once by human sillyness, or once by mechanical/electrical/chemical failure... Just imagine manufacturing mistakes.... Forgot some screws on the planecraft? Anyshit can happen anywhere anytime... Lets have another tsunami hit another nuclear power plant... That reme,bers me of this movie, what was is name. pacific rim. Sry ot
 
OBE with A or SR soundtracks vs LFE.1

which is likely to have had the bass in THX at high wycombe 6 ? JBL professional feel the sound power of bass !
top gun or the living daylights
back when cinema had some real bass sub bass OBE with THX sound system

Screenshot 2025-08-04 00.24.56.png
 
not necessarily true in practice, for multichannel music releases
Yes, you are correct, but because the first post from OP mentioned word "movie" twice and not a single word about multichannel music, my simplified "LFE definition" was about home theater only.
 
Lightning and immediate thunder 20 feet from my house sure seemed directional. No sub can reproduce that sound. My wife was dozing on the couch. She bolted up and reminded of a scene from the Night of the Living Dead.
Sounds like you have a dip above 80 that removes directivity, 80 and below is the boom, above is the higher pitch on a close strike that gives directional clues. Did you REW the system?

You are partially wrong, direction comes from the mains at a crossover of 80 or lower. Many subs plus mains can recreate what you heard with ease. I have had many that do and a few were not pricy. (The mains are the issue so you are correct, no sub can reproduce what you heard, a sub plus mains can do it easily with REW and a bit of work. (If the sub is capable of high output in low bass and subsonic area so you both heat and feel it,
 
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THX sound system designed for cinema , in my home for 14 years , everyday is kike a real visit to THX professional , feel the professional reference end game bass with Dolby Stereo CP200 OBE bass , the stormaudio is okay but the CP200 was first 1980 ,

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THX sound system 3.jpg


THX crossover cards dating back to 1984 and 1996

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LFE.1 on stage channels 2 and 4 for star wars 1977 baby boom flashback
or maybe close encounters of the sub arrays on the floor
 
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