In regard to loudness, there's this:
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Bass and subwoofers
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In regard to loudness, there's this:
Lion♡
Senior Member
Uuh... this is too difficult. I'm trying to test the code with the help of GPT, but it's really hard. (I have no knowledge of coding at all.)
100Hz low-pass mono noise
100Hz low-pass decorrelated noise
Why so serious
I wanted to see the real-time variability of the track, but the curve moves faster than I expected, so it feels a bit overwhelming.
100Hz low-pass mono noise
100Hz low-pass decorrelated noise
Why so serious
I wanted to see the real-time variability of the track, but the curve moves faster than I expected, so it feels a bit overwhelming.
I'm not sure why lag is interesting here, rather more of a 200 millisecond aggregate normalized cross-correlation might be a tractible (more stable) number.
What you've got right now is closer to a cochlea simulation, I think, but I'm not sure what the filter used is. Now that's not a bad thing, however, interpreting it would involve modelling the inner hair cell as well, and then figuring out how to understand the firings, and I'm afraid I don't have any hard data for that to even offer vaguely. It's not something I can't help with, I don't have any such data, and the data I'm aware of hasn't been the best.
Lion♡
Senior Member
A lot remains unknown, thanks to the adherence of 60+ years of "you can't hear imaging below 90Hz" misinterpretation of "can't hear direction" as "can't hear anything else, either". It's one of the two big horrors in audio science, the other one being that intraaural phase shift is not audible. That fallacy is based on the idea that since you can't hear phase issues with a tone at 60Hz vs. 7kHz, you can't hear any phase issues. There are at least two threads, one of which people still refuse to believe despite testable evidence provided in the form of "phase shift only" signals that can be properly measured and confirmed as such that simply sound different.
Audio is like that. It's been a battle between the (1kHz THD rules) and (trust your ears) people since before I was born, and I'm old.
Now, properly measured, SNR does rule, but only in terms of short-term error spectrum vs. signal spectrum.
audiofooled
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SPL being only a part of the equation, so how do you test other "bits of information", as big waves that besides perceived loudness have even more qualities such as where they are perceptually coming from, moving towards or away from you, and at what rate are they expanding or contracting? 
What gives in terms of stuff that we can measure, predict, simulate?
What gives in terms of stuff that we can measure, predict, simulate?
Keith_W
Master Contributor
There are now nearly 10,000 albums produced in multichannel that have been released on disc alone, not taking into account those released on downloadable files or on streams. Most of them are in the classical genre. Many of them are true multichannel recordings. And there are probably many many more awaiting to be published. Stereo multichannel recordings (more than two discrete recording and reproducing channels) have been made since at least the 1950s. Hell, as of 2025, we still cannot enjoy in its multichannel form the 1957 recording of Medea that the Mercury Living Presence team made with their three-channels technique that fascinated Maria Callas herself! I am personally in touch with a French sound engineer who run two small classical music labels who kindly provides on demand the dozens of the 4 or 6 discrete channels recordings he has been making for more than 20 years because he cannot find any convenient distribution channel for them.
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For samples of pipe organ music, I suggest to listen to and analyze recordings made by Mr Bernard Neveu, which is known to be the best specialist of organ recording in France. He consistently uses largely spaced (several meters) omnidirectional microphones for almost all his recordings. His method is inspired by the early works of Emory Cook and experimentation he has done with the help of his friend, Georges Cabasse (a famous French pioneer in the Hi-fi field). His organ recordings are stunning. A great example is the album Transprovisations by Shin-Young Lee, Olivier Latry's wife (who is a better organ player than her male partner, said to me another organist friend of mine
).Link to download the catalogue of B. Neveu's recordings.
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Lion♡
Senior Member
A Broad Discussion of Speakers with Major Audio Luminaries
Even though I know intellectually the challenges of creating the sensation of a large space using stereo speakers in a smaller room (mine is 13’ x 15’ with a large room opening to the hallway), in practice I have found I can get quite a believable-to-me sensation of listening into a very large...
audiosciencereview.com
It’s a slightly different topic thread, but Dr. Floyd Toole, j_j, and Thomas Lund have been sharing brief comments. If you missed it, be sure to check it out.
Also, while most participants in this thread (or other stereo‑bass related threads) are likely using professional DSP, if you happen to be using Equalizer APO on Windows, try saving the following settings as a TXT file and including it. The 100 Hz crossover frequency is arbitrarily chosen—it lets you quickly audition how things sound assuming a final mono routing for one or more subwoofers. (You can easily try it with speakers, IEMs, or headphones.)
What I found interesting was that some tracks showed no difference even when mono‑routing up to around 200 Hz, while others revealed audible differences down at about 60 Hz. Also, although I’m no mixing engineer, I noticed that even small effects—like the reverbs used in modern electronic and dance music (and even some K‑pop tracks)—exhibit audible differences between mono and stereo routing.
So these days I keep thinking about what Thomas Lund said: it’s giving up before you even start.
Code:
Copy: L=L R=R
Channel: all
Copy: L1=L L2=L R1=R R2=R
Channel: L1 R1
Preamp: -6 dB
Filter: ON LPQ Fc 100 Hz Q 0.707
Filter: ON LPQ Fc 100 Hz Q 0.707
Channel: L2 R2
Filter: ON HPQ Fc 100 Hz Q 0.707
Filter: ON HPQ Fc 100 Hz Q 0.707
Copy: L=L1+R1+L2
Copy: R=L1+R1+R2
Copy: L=L R=RFor samples of pipe organ music, I suggest to listen to and analyze recordings made by Mr Bernard Neveu, which is known to be the best specialist of organ recording in France. He consistently uses largely spaced (several meters) omnidirectional microphones for almost all his recordings. His method is inspired by the early works of Emory Cook and experimentation he has done with the help of his friend, Georges Cabasse (a famous French pioneer in the Hi-fi field). His organ recordings are stunning. A great example is the album Transprovisations by Shin-Young Lee, Olivier Latry's wife (who is a better organ player than her male partner, said to me another organist friend of mine
Link to download the catalogue of B. Neveu's recordings.
Thanks very much for the catalogue link.
I just accompanied my 90 year old mother to Notre-Dame de Paris. She has severe hearing loss; but was included in the Auditory Envelopment (AE) tests after all, as hearing on both her ears is intact below 200 Hz.
We got in for the 10 o'clock mass on April 27, and sat down listening to beautiful organ playing with choir. Mom was completely carried away by the sound, which rarely happens anymore, and I asked her to relate what she heard to the AE test two years ago. She instantly understood, without having other words for the feeling besides from “opløftende”, which would be uplifting and moving in English.
Walking around later during the mass, which one can easily do without disturbing congregators in that magnificent cathedral, we both noticed how gorgeous AE engulfed us no matter where we were, or how we were orientated.
Not recognising AE as an elementary percept, is like not accepting colours, until we understood how to measure them.
I recently built (from a GSG flatpack) a large sub to replace a couple of small heavily DSP'd subs I was disappointed with. Due to this thread and several others and the fact that I felt I was missing something with mono bass I built a second large sub. So far I am happy with how it sounds. When switching back and forth between stereo and mono bass, as mentioned, some recordings sound different and some don't but on balance it is an improvement. Thank you to all contributors.
audiofooled
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More recent talk by @Thomas Lund on Auditory envelopment:
A link to an important paper on Auditory localization of low-frequency sound sources that he referenced towards the end of the discussion:
I highly recommend both, for people who are interested in these subjects.
A link to an important paper on Auditory localization of low-frequency sound sources that he referenced towards the end of the discussion:
I highly recommend both, for people who are interested in these subjects.
Regretably, both more latency and a lot more processing are necessary to mimic the effects of a good real hall. This is one of my frustrations with many 'does it matter' tests, because the MATERIAL has no information to detect.
Andysu
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you have a bus outside , open the windows and walk around the room you still hear within that room , peaks and dips , doesn't have to be just speakers
oh and does the bass from a bus outside press against your body ? of course no it doesn't , step onto a bus with an all-day ticket be the best sub bass bus ride of your life , you'll come away ruined , oh how was that possible ? got know what to listen/feel for psychoacoustics something you don't get in this dolby labs atmos rubbish , yep there's always something missing in these sound mixes
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Hi JJ, this paper seems to suggest a larger and/or less reverberant room may be necessary https://audioroundtable.com/misc/icad2005F96.pdf
Thoughts? I believe @Thomas Lund recent tests were outdoors. Not sure if he has seen the ones done by McGill, indoor.
Yep. Physics is like that
So, so true.Wish I had a palace, but any good options for us living room sized folk?
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