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Barefoot Footprint 01 Review (Studio Monitor)

richard12511

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Welcome to the boards, I'm glad you posted here.

I don't agree with the ATC hatred here either. Their SL spec drivers, especially that coveted mid-dome (which is the greatest midrange driver in the world), are engineering feats that have yet to be surpassed by anyone. The one area you can criticize with ATC is the lack of extended bass until you pay $20k+ for the SCM150s. The tradeoff is ATC goes for the lowest amount of distortion in the bass. You just have to pay a ton of money for full range. ATC's rule at revealing every detail in a recording (and the electronics you feed them). These are not speakers you probably want to have if your recordings suck, unless you want to know how much they suck.

Not surprised you are missing the dynamic punch with KH310s. That's definitely something those speakers don't have.

I think one reason for some of the ATC hate here is due to how closely(in time) it was reviewed to the PMC, with both being British studio monitor brands. The ATC measurements were actually fairly decent(not awful, especially with EQ), while the PMC measurements were terrible. For some reason, I often see PMC and ATC lumped together. It was also an older discontinued and passive ATC, which is likely not representative of their current active lineup. ATC is pretty honest with the fact that their passive speakers don't measure as well or sound as good as their active speakers, and that they mainly make them to satisfy the "audiophile" market, which likes to play with amps.

BTW, I don't agree that the ATC mid dome is the best there is ;). It's a topic that's come up a bit here, and while it is a great driver, many have correctly pointed out that the Neumann dome is actually even better(going by measurements). Maybe ATC did it first, but I think Neumann kinda one upped them.

@BlacklightBully , I think your impressions actually jive with the measurements. The Barefoots have more bass extension, and still measure really well. The Neumanns measure near perfect, but the difference isn't huge, and they don't have the bass punch of the Barefoots. I would expect it to be close when listening without subs in play, and wouldn't be surprised if many preferred the foots. Especially if you're judging by what's more fun to listen to. Neumanns are certainly a bit more honest, but bass is definitely fun :).

I think all the discussion about the measurements being different from manufacturer specs kinda hid the fact that the foots still measured really well overall. Amir even gave them a recommendation.
 

DJBonoBobo

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One thing I miss dearly from the Barefoot’s is the dynamic punch. The Neumann don’t compete at all in this area. Also, I’m having a hard time being able to separate the kick from the bass. The bass of the Neumann is good, but not mind blowing. The Barefoot were incredible at this.

Interesting to read and no criticism of it, but what would interest me at this point would be a comparison of the frequency response at your listening position (MMM measurement). That would help me better understand your report and match it with the objective measurements. Maybe not in this thread, but maybe you might tell about your experience with the KH310 in more detail again when you had more time with them and maybe a few measurements?
 
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amirm

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ATC is pretty honest with the fact that their passive speakers don't measure as well or sound as good as their active speakers, and that they mainly make them to satisfy the "audiophile" market, which likes to play with amps.
Indeed. At one audio show they had them next door to each other. I listened to the active and like it a lot. Listened to the passive room and did not. Went back to the active room and told them this and they don't said what you are saying. Would be nice to test their active speakers if someone has any.
 

dfuller

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BTW, I don't agree that the ATC mid dome is the best there is ;). It's a topic that's come up a bit here, and while it is a great driver, many have correctly pointed out that the Neumann dome is actually even better(going by measurements). Maybe ATC did it first, but I think Neumann kinda one upped them.
Yes and no - the ATC is crossed a lot lower than the Neumann is and covers a much wider range. The dome in the KH310 and KH420 only covers about 1.5-2 octaves (570/700hz-2000hz) whereas the ATC covers more like 4 and change (380hz-3500hz). Making a dome midrange that behaves itself as low as 380hz is quite an accomplishment - you'll notice that the closest competitor to it, the Volt VM752, is not recommended below 500hz. Neumann probably did design a better driver for the very narrow band they use it for, but I highly doubt it has the wide bandwidth capabilities of the ATC.

Anyway, that's probably why Barefoot uses cone midranges - they can be crossed considerably lower. That Dayton they use on the Footprints doesn't start rolling off according to their datasheet til about 150hz. The bigger 5.25" mids/midwoofers on the MM27 are crossed with the subs around 100hz - no way in hell you could do that with a dome!
 

dfuller

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Indeed. At one audio show they had them next door to each other. I listened to the active and like it a lot. Listened to the passive room and did not. Went back to the active room and told them this and they don't said what you are saying. Would be nice to test their active speakers if someone has any.
I wonder if Brad at Trans Audio Group would be interested in sending you one?
 

napilopez

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Having owned the FP01s and recently moved to the 310s, I do agree there is this sort of "softness" in the mids that the 310s have (which IMO makes them worth pairing with some kind of exaggerated midrangey speaker) but I trust them a lot more than I did the FP01s which were in hindsight really all over the place and caused me to make some rather weird mix decisions.

As for ATCs, I'd have loved to have a pair of SCM25As, but I'm not at the point where I can justify spending as much on speakers as a decent used car. That mid dome is something truly special.

What's said to be special about the ATC mids? Genuinely curious as Idon't know much about them other than glancing at ATC's claims on its site.

I just see this:
ATC SCM25.png


at nearly $20,000 and get a bit wary. I mean, it's not truly bad, but... $20,000 on a monitor? [Edit: My bad, it's $10,000 a pair MSRP, and goes for around $9,000, but still.]

Also a completely different response to the SCM19 v1 amir measured (indeed, it's almost like the SCM19's response was turned upside down) so it doesn't even look like they're going for a real house sound.
 
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dfuller

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What's said to be special about the ATC mids? Genuinely curious as Idon't know much about them other than glancing at ATC's claims on its site.

I just see this:
at nearly $20,000 and get a bit wary. I mean, it's not truly bad, but... $25,000? Also a completely different response to the SCM19 v1 amir measured (indeed, it's almost like the SCM19's response was turned upside down) so it doesn't even look like they're going for a real house sound.
You sure this is the SCM25A? The price is off - $25,000 is the ballpark of the SCM150ASL. By the way I think you mean the Resolution review.

As for the midrange, it's very wide band (especially on the low end) and low distortion. It hasn't really been outdone on both fronts simultaneously.
 
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napilopez

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You sure this is the SCM25A? It doesn't look it, plus the price is off - $25,000 is the ballpark of the SCM150ASL.

As for the midrange, it's very wide band (especially on the low end) and low distortion. It hasn't really been outdone on both fronts simultaneously.

My bad on the $20,000. I saw the MSRP is $10,000 on sweetwater but missed that it was for a pair! That makes it a little better :)

And this is from soundandrecording.de -- I didn't just want to past the image since it's behind a paywalled measurement collection. It's in german so maybe there's something I'm missing but it says ATC SCM25 ASL Pro and refers to it as SCM25A throughout the article. It's from 2010 so I don't know if the design has changed since then.

And yeah, I just saw your reply to richard12511. Interesting! Seems a case to me of focusing a lot on some technologies but not seeing the forest for the trees. Like B&W makes some great drivers but their recent speakers have been all over the place.
 

dfuller

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And yeah, I just saw your reply to richard12511. Interesting! Seems a case to me of focusing a lot on some technologies but not seeing the forest for the trees. Like B&W makes some great drivers but their recent speakers have been all over the place.
Yeah ATC's focus is generally rather blinder-like on low distortion. Interestingly more recently once they introduced their own tweeter they started waveguiding them, but never bothered when they were buying them from Vifa or Seas.
 

napilopez

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Yeah ATC's focus is generally rather blinder-like on low distortion. Interestingly more recently once they introduced their own tweeter they started waveguiding them, but never bothered when they were buying them from Vifa or Seas.

Gotcha, seems to be a pretty common trend.

I never read The Audio Critic, but this quote from an interview with Peter Aczel has stuck with me:

"The trouble is that most designers have an obsessive agenda about one particular design requirement, which they then inflate above all others, marginalizing the latter. Very few designers focus on the forest rather than the trees. The best designer is inevitably the one who has no agenda, meaning that he does not care which engineering approach works best as long as it really does."
 

thewas

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Also the active ATCs while not measuring poor like most PMC do, are no references from measurement point of view and not that better then their passive models, see for example
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...tc-speakers-monitors.17448/page-2#post-565359
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...tc-speakers-monitors.17448/page-2#post-566803
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...tc-speakers-monitors.17448/page-3#post-567084

Also their famous and really good 3" mid driver was for many decades almost without competition but now competition has progressed, see https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...tc-speakers-monitors.17448/page-6#post-638111

This doesn't mean that they are not good loudspeakers or I wouldn't enjoy owning them but their prices are very high and they didn't evolve as much as some reference competition did.
 
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Pearljam5000

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I liked how the SCM100A sounded here, but liked the 8C even more
 

richard12511

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Yes and no - the ATC is crossed a lot lower than the Neumann is and covers a much wider range. The dome in the KH310 and KH420 only covers about 1.5-2 octaves (570/700hz-2000hz) whereas the ATC covers more like 4 and change (380hz-3500hz). Making a dome midrange that behaves itself as low as 380hz is quite an accomplishment - you'll notice that the closest competitor to it, the Volt VM752, is not recommended below 500hz. Neumann probably did design a better driver for the very narrow band they use it for, but I highly doubt it has the wide bandwidth capabilities of the ATC.

Anyway, that's probably why Barefoot uses cone midranges - they can be crossed considerably lower. That Dayton they use on the Footprints doesn't start rolling off according to their datasheet til about 150hz. The bigger 5.25" mids/midwoofers on the MM27 are crossed with the subs around 100hz - no way in hell you could do that with a dome!

I guess I just don't really see how a wider band is a good thing if it measures and sounds worse over that band. And do we know that the Neumann mid can't be crossed that low? Like I said, I think the ATC is a good mid, mainly for it's wide bandwidth, but I wouldn't put it over a mid dome that measures better in terms of frequency response and distortion because of that, especially when the Neumann drivers that cover those lows also do so better. The Neumann dome is pretty clearly better, based on what I've seen.
 

richard12511

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richard12511

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Indeed. At one audio show they had them next door to each other. I listened to the active and like it a lot. Listened to the passive room and did not. Went back to the active room and told them this and they don't said what you are saying. Would be nice to test their active speakers if someone has any.

Can't tell if you're agreeing with me or not :D.

I believe I heard it in a youtube video, don't remember the name of the channel, though :(. It was a fairly long interview with one of the ATC guys, and the question of active vs passive was asked. ATC basically said the active would be better in most situations, but they understand that some of their customers have spent lots of time and money on their amplifiers, and they want to accommodate those customers. They also explain why, though I don't remember what they said.

I suppose it's possible the actives measure similarly. Revel and KEF seem pretty capable of getting great at getting fantastic performance out of passive designs.

I do hope more ATCs get measured here. I'd especially love to see the giant main monitors. @BlacklightBully's impressions are very common from what I've read. It seems very common that they're among the best that many have heard.
 

dfuller

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@BlacklightBully's impressions are very common from what I've read. It seems very common that they're among the best that many have heard.
The best way I can describe ATCs is "very, very rude to things that don't already sound good". This has been my experience with every single one I've used - anywhere from the 25As all the way up to the 200ASLs. This is in a mixing situation and the KH310s remind me favorably of that (going on memory, it's been a while since I used any ATCs).
They also explain why, though I don't remember what they said.
I think it was a combination of "you can do more with an active crossover than you can with a passive one" and "it doesn't change frequency response as the driver's T-S parameters change during use", if I'm thinking of the right video.
 

YSC

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You are lucky that your “tonality” is neutral. For many people flat frequency response is not good “tonality” — as it should be! There’s no “tone” to hear from the speakers, they are tone-less, in other words flat!

This reminded me a story. Back in the early 70s when Julian Vereker RIP had a small shop in Salisbury, hand building amplifiers, a guy from Australia visited him. (He was to become NAIM’s first dealer.) He was critiquing the NAP250 - Linn Isobaric system, Julian used as his demo, as toneless. Julian and I were good friends. I joined Julian to “wine & dine” the guy, so to speak, during the week he stayed in the UK. In order to prove him that Hi-Fi means nothing to be added to the recorded sound, we took him to the Royal Festival Hall in london to a LSO concert. I had the exact piece the LSO was to play on an LP. We played him the record and off we went to London. After the concert we asked him what he thinks? He said “too much highs, not enough bass” — for the concert sound!

The moral of the story: Most people don’t like Hi-Fi.
I kind of agree and disagree for this. it's like food somehow, some ppl just put Tabasco on any food they ordered be it steak, noodles or pizza.. they are just addicted to that flavor of the sauce, but somehow I do think for music or food, we choose one to enjoy since we like the chef or the producer, so further tuning them defies the purpose. But yea, since this is a hobby, you can enjoy whatever you wanted with your money and absolutely no problem at all!

Even at car racing where there's basically formulas to make a street car really performs at their best, it won't stop ppl doing outrages mods which makes their cars go actually slower around the track..

Back to speakers, I do personally somehow preferred a bit extra bass, but when playing some new arrival lists, there are always that few songs that will pop up here and there with my "preferred old speaker" with uncorrected bass boost near the wall makes it just sounds boomy and can't even hear clearly what the singer sings and it went much better with the neutral speaker. I believe those have their preferred tonality will likely just enjoy what sounds "improved" with their system and don't bother to listen to those tracks which got "degraded"
 

BlacklightBully

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I’m starting to accept that I will most likely need to have an accurate/neutral set of monitors, and a set with vibe that are more “fun”

I find myself wondering if I should get a set of the Footprint 01’s in here to try out. The main concern I have with these would be the crunchy upper mid range- everything else I really enjoyed about the 02’s. (Minus the issue with the tweeter obviously)

Is it possible to EQ this using sonar works to solve this issue?

On another note, I’m curious why frequency response and directivity get so much attention but rarely do I hear discussion about dynamics or transient response? Forgive me if I’m missing something… What measurement is done to determine how good a speaker is with dynamics? I’m truly asking to learn.

The ATC speakers that I heard were the scm25a and the scm45a. The thing that stood out for me the most was how fast the speakers were. The way that I could hear the movement of the music with such clarity and cohesiveness was truly a paradigm shift for me. It was like an acoustic 3d experience which is a little hard to describe. And I get it, it sounds so subjective and like marketing BS. I’m over all the claims about how amazing this or that speaker or gadget is going to make everything. It’s why I was drawn to this site. If I ever have to hear someone tell me “It’s like a blanket was removed from the speaker” I think I’ll roll my eyes so far back in my head that they might never come around again. That being said, the ATC experience let me hear something I had never before heard.

I would like to run some measurements in REW with the setup I have using the Neumanns. If I do this I will be happy to post the results.
 

YSC

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I’m starting to accept that I will most likely need to have an accurate/neutral set of monitors, and a set with vibe that are more “fun”

I find myself wondering if I should get a set of the Footprint 01’s in here to try out. The main concern I have with these would be the crunchy upper mid range- everything else I really enjoyed about the 02’s. (Minus the issue with the tweeter obviously)

Is it possible to EQ this using sonar works to solve this issue?

On another note, I’m curious why frequency response and directivity get so much attention but rarely do I hear discussion about dynamics or transient response? Forgive me if I’m missing something… What measurement is done to determine how good a speaker is with dynamics? I’m truly asking to learn.

The ATC speakers that I heard were the scm25a and the scm45a. The thing that stood out for me the most was how fast the speakers were. The way that I could hear the movement of the music with such clarity and cohesiveness was truly a paradigm shift for me. It was like an acoustic 3d experience which is a little hard to describe. And I get it, it sounds so subjective and like marketing BS. I’m over all the claims about how amazing this or that speaker or gadget is going to make everything. It’s why I was drawn to this site. If I ever have to hear someone tell me “It’s like a blanket was removed from the speaker” I think I’ll roll my eyes so far back in my head that they might never come around again. That being said, the ATC experience let me hear something I had never before heard.

I would like to run some measurements in REW with the setup I have using the Neumanns. If I do this I will be happy to post the results.
I am no expert but somehow I guess the transient could be guessed or shown by distortion? coz normally the % distortion partly comes from the bleed from uncontrolled tone remainents from the tone played split second ago..
 
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