It is nearly impossible to find balanced tone arm cables. Do tone arm cables not benefit from common mode rejection as other interconnects? They are typically very short runs but carry such tiny voltages. Can anyone share the possible benefits of balancing a tone arm cable?
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Balanced tone arm cables.
- Thread starter Lowfi
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I found it similarly impossible, so I fabricated my own cable using Mogami Neglex wiring & Neutrik connectors.
Utilizing fully balanced from cartridge to phono stage to preamp to power amp, the biggest benefit for my setup is virtually zero non-existent hum.
And with a very low noise floor, everything else including soundstage & dynamics improved considerably.
Of course, it's also important to make certain the wiring from both left & right negative terminals at the cartridge are not grounded to the turntable chassis.
Some are and if so it would essentially negate the balanced connectivity.
Utilizing fully balanced from cartridge to phono stage to preamp to power amp, the biggest benefit for my setup is virtually zero non-existent hum.
And with a very low noise floor, everything else including soundstage & dynamics improved considerably.
Of course, it's also important to make certain the wiring from both left & right negative terminals at the cartridge are not grounded to the turntable chassis.
Some are and if so it would essentially negate the balanced connectivity.
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I achieved similarly non existent hum by using toslink from Phono Pre (waxing) to AVR. (Also needed to give waxwing a good solid ground)
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Depends on what you call "balanced".
Normally you have 2x RCA, a L an R and a common ground. This is called single ended.
Pro-ject uses a 4 wire approach, L+/L- and R+/R-. This is called balanced (in=out) https://www.project-audio.com/en/true-balanced/
As you talk about common mode rejection, this is a 3 wire per channel approach. Hot, the inverse (the cold) and an ground per channel.
You need a balun at the sender to create the balanced signal and of course a differential amp at the receiver. There the hot and the cold are compared and all differences are removed. This is the balanced connection as common in the pro-world. Wonder if there are any turntables or phono stages offering this type of connection.
Normally you have 2x RCA, a L an R and a common ground. This is called single ended.
Pro-ject uses a 4 wire approach, L+/L- and R+/R-. This is called balanced (in=out) https://www.project-audio.com/en/true-balanced/
As you talk about common mode rejection, this is a 3 wire per channel approach. Hot, the inverse (the cold) and an ground per channel.
You need a balun at the sender to create the balanced signal and of course a differential amp at the receiver. There the hot and the cold are compared and all differences are removed. This is the balanced connection as common in the pro-world. Wonder if there are any turntables or phono stages offering this type of connection.
If anyone is looking for a supplier, here is one offering various cables and connectors:
www.shop.back-promo.co.uk
DIN-XLR Phono cables
A selection of tonearm cables equipped with a mini DIN tonearm connector (at source) and a pair of XLRs (+ optional ground lead (at destination).
www.shop.back-promo.co.uk
Fascinating; first I've heard of this device! I wonder if there are other competing devices. I experimented with ADC from my phono stage to my CD Transport/Recorder that has balanced inputs. And while it's kinda cool to convert to digital, I found myself reverting back to pure analog connectivity; it simply sounds better, not to mention much simpler.
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A cartridge is inherently balanced. Two connections for each channel. All you need is a cable from that to balanced interconnect, instead of RCA connections.
"All" for certain values of find ability
Fantastic bit of kit. I bought it for the "Magic" click reducer. Stayed for everything else.
Pretty much all arms are wired balanced as far as the connector at the arm base. After that it depends on the cable. I have wired mine with balanced cables and XLRs to the phono stage, which also has XLR inputs. When using a different phono stage, it's easy enough to use an XLR-Phono adapter that unbalances the cables. I find it particularly irritating that transformer step-ups don't routinely come with XLR I/Os, as the transformers themselves are intrinsically balanced, so why not make use of that?
S.
S.
- Thread Starter
- #9
Thanks to everyone for the quick replies. I’ve got lots of the Quad Neglex and lots of XLR’s on hand I’ll grab an angled DIN from Amazon and roll my own. See how that goes. Sibi has a UK source for reasonably priced pre-made. That will be my second stop if I fail. My phono stage is the Moon 310lp and does accept balanced inputs so remaining balanced all the way to the integrated is the goal. Thanks again!
- Thread Starter
- #10
Well that’s true. I suppose I could just remove the rca’s and solder on the XLR’s. Job done.
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Sorry, I believe this is mis-understood... to be balanced it needs a gnd-ref... or differential signal?
Per Wikipedia, a balanced lines should have differential sources, which the coils in the phono cartridge are. Each conductor also has the same impedance to ground, which in this case is infinite.
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No, it just needs balanced impedance which it has. You are talking about symmetry rather than balance.
But even then, if the two sides of the coil go into an impedance balanced ground referenced input circuit, then even without having a ground reference at the sending end - they will still be symmetric. You will probably understand why if you look at this (simplified) circuit.
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solderdude
Grand Contributor
Not needed at all.
One only has to make sure the signal wires are twisted and if not the screen of the signal has to be connected to the ground on the 'receiving side'.
One only has to make sure the signal wires are twisted and if not the screen of the signal has to be connected to the ground on the 'receiving side'.
The signals on the input to the circuit I show will be both impedance balanced, and symmetrical about ground.
In what way does this not meet your definition of balanced.
EDIT - in fact if you do what you suggest is needed it will be less balanced. Because the ground at one end of the wire won't be identical to the ground at the other end - you will actually create an imbalance by the amount of the common mode noise. It'll be tiny along the length of a tone arm cable - but it will be there.
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Not an engineer... but follow Mr.N. Pass....
www.diyaudio.com
and in my opinion... you will need double the parts for creating a differential signal - but then again, hairsplitting on what is differential and what is balanced...
Pearl Two
Did the Hacker found some photo's, schematics or sound impressions?;) Schematics isn't a mystery since long time..... Wayne has pubished a blank version, but...... :eek:
and in my opinion... you will need double the parts for creating a differential signal - but then again, hairsplitting on what is differential and what is balanced...
Sounds like Mr N Pass doesn't know what he is talking about either. Point is that *without* a ground reference at the cartridge you *can't* have common mode noise because common mode noise is - by definition - measured between the two grounds.
With the cartridge connected to a properly impedance balanced input, the cartridge gets referenced to the input circuit ground - which is exactly what you want.
Would it surprise you to know that when an audio device uses a transformer to create a balanced line level output, that transformer doesn't have a center tap either? No ground reference:
But to save further discussion, I'll just take your statement that you are not an engineer - look at you pointedly - and leave it there.
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A circuit can be balanced but not differential. Impedance balancing, for instance. A differential circuit can be unbalanced, but that's usually more by sloppy implementation than design intention.Not an engineer... but follow Mr.N. Pass....
Pearl Two
Did the Hacker found some photo's, schematics or sound impressions?;) Schematics isn't a mystery since long time..... Wayne has pubished a blank version, but...... :eek:
and in my opinion... you will need double the parts for creating a differential signal - but then again, hairsplitting on what is differential and what is balanced...
S
