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Back to basics. Definition: Analogue audio

j_j

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The sound pressure wave is first detected and then converted to another physical quantity in an "analogue" format which is a representation of the original prior to recording. The recording process may be "analogue" or "quantised digital" where the quantised value may be pure binary or in one of many codes, such as that used over a USB connection.

Depending on the microphone, it may not be only pressure that is detected. A cardoid, for instance, detects half pressure and half velocity along its axis, and adds the two together. There are other examples.

"Quantized digital" is just another analog of the signal. Furthermore, the proper terminology is "quantized, sampled". "Digital" (although it usually is) does not have to be sampled.

Whether the signal representing the original sound pressure wave is "analogue" or "digital", the interpretation depends on the source and the receiver. A pulse in a "digital" system is essentially an analogue signal with only two recognised values. It is the interpretation of the information encoded in the signal that differentiates "analogue" and "digital" systems.

A simple pulse is only one way to encode digital signals, and not necessarily the best. There is an entire world of knowledge missing when you reduce a digital signal to a pulse or a USB waveform. Modems exist, and are common. The storage and transmission of a set of digitized samples via modem uses a much wider bandwidth than the original signal, which gives rise to redundancy that can protect the digitized signal very, very well. In this, again, as I said previously, the KEY, the important question, is that the time and level were captured discretely in a way that can be protected in an extremely effective way. Unsampled/unquantized systems like FM (wideband FM, not narrowband FM) also use bandwidth redundancy, but in a less effective way.

Quoting from a previous post "A voltage or current waveform propagated in any transmission medium is subject to the same laws of physics. In this respect alone there is no difference between a voltage (or current) waveform that represents a varying amplitude or a varying frequency or a varying pulse train. This is fundamental."

Actually, that obscures the facts of the matter completely, and while the waveforms are subject to physics, the chance of a digital error can be reduced trivially in a benign recording medium to "once in the age of the universe". (and the loss will be flagged as 'bad data') The mistake here is in assuming that a signal that is purely continuous in time and level has the same sensitivity to error as a signal that is quantized and properly encoded for transmission over a benign medium, and that is simply false. Given the same "wire plus amplifiers", a signal with 96dB SNR will require a substantially better than 96dB from the "wire plus amplifiers" to avoid a simply measured error, even ignoring mild frequency shaping. Given a quantized, sampled, and properly encoded system, a channel with very low SNR can provide absolutely perfect recovery of the quantized data BECAUSE OF THE KNOWLEDGE of the system in both time and level quantization, coupled with the redundancy built into the quantized, sampled stream. The "low SNR channel" does have a wider bandwidth. Shannon makes this clear in his basic paper on information theory.

One caveat of such systems is that you get very, very little warning (except from the demodulator) before the system fails completely in a properly encoded signal transmitted by digits. One such system I worked on, involving a radio system and a fading simulator, provided "no detected errors" at a given (proprietary) level. at 0.1 dB below that in SNR, it provided an error per second. At another 0.1dB below that, the signal could not be recovered. In any case, the analog audio signal in the comparable analog case (AM or FM, no matter) would have been entirely wrecked, let alone "impaired" at any of those 3 closely spaced levels. Shannon's work was, and is, right.

So your quoted, misleading (at least in the context offered here) statement leads the reader to a profoundly mistaken conclusion that continuous time and level systems have the same sensitivity to noise as a sampled and quantized system. Was that your intention? Furthermore, the (gasp) ITALIC quote does not necessarily make for an argument. A proper citation mentions author and qualifications, as well as context.

Once again, it is the knowledge of exact timing and level (to the quantization level) that provides the means to protect a digital signal. Information-theoretic systems allow the storage and transmission of that signal with arbitrary reliability (not accuracy, the accuracy is set forever at capture).

What was your point, anyhow? It appears that you wanted to have an argument, and now you've succeeded.
 
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antcollinet

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It appears that you wanted to have an argument, and now you've succeeded.

Is that the 5 minute argument, or the 10 minute argument? /python


Or is it (like most on the internet) one that lasts from now until the heat death of the universe? :p
 

solderdude

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Without a solid, unified definition, we can not go forward in a scientific discussion.
I think it is time to have a bullet-proof definition for Analogue signal in general and Analogue audio in particular.
Ofcourse we could do a little Google and come up with some, but what do you think?
Afterwards, we could have a bullet-proof definition of Digital signal and digital audio in particular.
But for now, let us talk about Analogue Audio only.
It may sound mundane, but it seems we need to define certain phrases before we use them.

Analog is when a waveform is preserved in a manner that is analog to the intended waveform (magnetic, optical, mechanical) or is in electrical form with an amplitude (voltage, current) analog in value to the (intended) waveform.

Modulated is when the waveform is mixed with a carrier via some specific method (frequency, amplitude, phase) and when demodulated (the carrier removed) has the intended signal waveform again. Demodulation is needed to recover the intended waveform(s)

Digital is when the intended waveform is converted to numerical values and needs to be converted back from numerical values to the intended waveform to retrieve the intended waveform(s) again. The physical 'format' of the numerical values is irrelevant as long as the correct numerical value does not change.
 
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BDWoody

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Is that the 5 minute argument, or the 10 minute argument? /python


Or is it (like most on the internet) one that lasts from now until the heat death of the universe? :p

I don't know about you, but I don't think I'd want to argue with @j_j about anything in his wheelhouse...
 

BDWoody

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j_j

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Analog is when a waveform is preserved in a manner that is analog to the intended waveform (magnetic, optical, mechanical) or is in electrical form with an amplitude (voltage, current) analog in value to the (intended) waveform.

Modulated is when the waveform is mixed with a carrier via some specific method (frequency, amplitude, phase) and when demodulated (the carrier removed) has the intended signal waveform again. Demodulation is needed to recover the intended waveform(s)

Digital is when the intended waveform is converted to numerical values and needs to be converted back from numerical values to the intended waveform to retrieve the intended waveform(s) again. The physical 'format' of the numerical values is irrelevant as long as the correct numerical value does not change.

Agreed, I separate out sampling as a particular and common form of modulation, and quantization as the "reduction to numerical values", as the value of those two particular ideas is key to the reliability.
 
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Ken Tajalli

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1668306634611.png

Actually, that obscures the facts of the matter completely, and while the waveforms are subject to physics, the chance of a digital error can be reduced trivially in a benign recording medium to "once in the age of the universe". (and the loss will be flagged as 'bad data') The mistake here is in assuming that a signal that is purely continuous in time and level has the same sensitivity to error as a signal that is quantized and properly encoded for transmission over a benign medium, and that is simply false.
So your quoted, misleading (at least in the context offered here) statement leads the reader to a profoundly mistaken conclusion that continuous time and level systems have the same sensitivity to noise as a sampled and quantized system. Was that your intention? Furthermore, the (gasp) ITALIC quote does not necessarily make for an argument. A proper citation mentions author and qualifications, as well as context.

Once again, it is the knowledge of exact timing and level (to the quantization level) that provides the means to protect a digital signal. Information-theoretic systems allow the storage and transmission of that signal with arbitrary reliability (not accuracy, the accuracy is set forever at capture).
Can I take this opportunity to thank all posters, as the OP, the one who asked the question in the first place.
Indeed, statements such as the one @Fleuch had offered are what initiated my disagreement and started this thread.
my assumptions:
- Digital signal is what is quantified in numbers . i.e. the Digit in Digital.
- Analogue signal is a representation of another signal that is not quantified in numbers, hence FM AM, analogue amplifier outputs etc.
- A simple voltage , varying or not, on a conductor, that is neither of the above that can be ignored, does not carry useful information is not a signal at all!
Examples, DC offset or HF RF, on an Analogue audio signal, Low amplitude noise on a digital signal etc.

1668308417340.png

See! you are already arguing ...:)
 

j_j

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- Digital signal is what is quantified in numbers . i.e. the Digit in Digital.

Well, more "bits" than "numbers", you can think generically as "symbols" of which numbers are a very useful form. This question goes right back to modems, and how modems work, as well as complex analysis and the like. A "number" is a representation of some particular value, and a very useful one, of course.

- Analogue signal is a representation of another signal that is not quantified in numbers, hence FM AM, analogue amplifier outputs etc.

It's also sampled. That is a separate, independent process from quantization. It carries its own usefulness.

There were, and are, many systems that are sampled but not quantized, although the formerly ubiquitous TDM used for long-distance transmission is almost gone, things like TDMA and the like still exist in many systems, both in synchronous form and asynchronous form, some also involving quantization, not necessarily into bits, but also into multiple bits, part of a bit, etc.

- A simple voltage , varying or not, on a conductor, that is neither of the above that can be ignored, does not carry useful information is not a signal at all!
Examples, DC offset or HF RF, on an Analogue audio signal, Low amplitude noise on a digital signal etc.

All of those are information in the theoretic sense. "Information" is a formal quality, and is indifferent of the meaning of the information. Don't mix philosophy with the technical definitions. And "a signal" is a signal. What distinction you're making there is confused. A useless signal is still a signal.

And all signals going into the loudspeaker driver are "a simple voltage <implying a specific current given the system>" until they get to the driver, after which they become sound (or RF if it's an antenna, and so on).

There are formal definitions involved, and it helps to use them rather than allow misuse of terms that confuse the issue.
 
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Ken Tajalli

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Well, more "bits" than "numbers", you can think generically as "symbols" of which numbers are a very useful form. This question goes right back to modems, and how modems work, as well as complex analysis and the like. A "number" is a representation of some particular value, and a very useful one, of course.
Thanx noted
It's also sampled. That is a separate, independent process from quantization. It carries its own usefulness.

There were, and are, many systems that are sampled but not quantized, although the formerly ubiquitous TDM used for long-distance transmission is almost gone, things like TDMA and the like still exist in many systems, both in synchronous form and asynchronous form, some also involving quantization, not necessarily into bits, but also into multiple bits, part of a bit, etc.

All of those are information in the theoretic sense. "Information" is a formal quality, and is indifferent of the meaning of the information. Don't mix philosophy with the technical definitions. And "a signal" is a signal. What distinction you're making there is confused. A useless signal is still a signal.
I did say, Useful information! going back to DC offset on an analogue audio signal, the existence of which is information that there is a problem with a previous stage that leaks DC, but as far as the audio signal is concerned, it is useless information (unless the next stages happen to have bandwidth down to zero!).
But I do stand corrected, there are such things as useless signals.
And all signals going into the loudspeaker driver are "a simple voltage <implying a specific current given the system>" until they get to the driver, after which they become sound (or RF if it's an antenna, and so on).
A little bit of HF noise leaking onto speaker wires, fall under useless signal (and benign). am I correct?
There are formal definitions involved, and it helps to use them rather than allow misuse of terms that confuse the issue.
Thanx, noted again.
 

j_j

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A little bit of HF noise leaking onto speaker wires, fall under useless signal (and benign). am I correct?
Well, HF noise in a speaker line can upset some amplifiers terribly. That's really an amplifier problem, but in general signal leakage is a bad thing in any case. It's still a signal, but RF reaching many semiconductor amplifiers is not a good thing. Tube amps with transformers, of course, will almost always ignore it (transformer doesn't even see it, generally, but not always), unless there is post-winding feedback (which is certainly a thing).

So, just to be completely clear, such things are not necessarily benign. They just are.
 
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Ken Tajalli

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Well, HF noise in a speaker line can upset some amplifiers terribly. That's really an amplifier problem, but in general signal leakage is a bad thing in any case. It's still a signal, but RF reaching many semiconductor amplifiers is not a good thing. Tube amps with transformers, of course, will almost always ignore it (transformer doesn't even see it, generally, but not always), unless there is post-winding feedback (which is certainly a thing).

So, just to be completely clear, such things are not necessarily benign. They just are.
I had HF from a class D amplifier, or RF pickup on the wires themselves in mind, when I said it.
If induced RF on speaker wires can cause amplifier issues, then the designer should in reality employ RF filters on input and output, so the feedback loop won't get compromised (is that what you had in mind?).
At any rate, the speakers would just ignore this useless signal, unless it becomes massive in quantity.
This reminds me of your next talk, Bandwidth!
 

j_j

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I had HF from a class D amplifier, or RF pickup on the wires themselves in mind, when I said it.
If induced RF on speaker wires can cause amplifier issues, then the designer should in reality employ RF filters, so the feedback loop won't get compromised (is that what you had in mind?).
At any rate, the speakers would just ignore this useless signal, unless it becomes massive in quantity.

Very true. And what you say about amp designers I'm 100% in line with. Much like "power cables". If a power cable filters out noise and makes something work better, I think the blame should go to the power supply in the device, for goodness' sake, that's what power supplies are for!

Speakers would most likely ignore it, unless it's huge and over heats a resistor, or a capacitive style of tweeter, or something like that, which would mean at least many milliwatts,which is a great bleepin' lot of leakage.
 
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Ken Tajalli

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....... If a power cable filters out noise and makes something work better, I think the blame should go to the power supply in the device, for goodness' sake, that's what power supplies are for!
Absolutely! :)
 

pau

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Without a solid, unified definition, we can not go forward in a scientific discussion.
I think it is time to have a bullet-proof definition for Analogue signal in general and Analogue audio in particular.
Ofcourse we could do a little Google and come up with some, but what do you think?
Afterwards, we could have a bullet-proof definition of Digital signal and digital audio in particular.
But for now, let us talk about Analogue Audio only.
It may sound mundane, but it seems we need to define certain phrases before we use them.

Any takers?
coolest-close-ups-on-how-vinyl-works-fb.jpg



Are you trying to understand how e.g vinyl is storing a recording in analog format vs CD in digital as example? that is the basic of this whole depate. All the use cases and features are carved into those differences. first one needs to understand what is signal of course.

 

j_j

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I wouldn't put a great deal of faith in that site, from what's written there. I didn't listen to the video, but the "summary" section is not particularly precise. I'm being polite.
 

pau

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I wouldn't put a great deal of faith in that site, from what's written there. I didn't listen to the video, but the "summary" section is not particularly precise. I'm being polite.
Probably over simplifying and generalizing quite a lot , but the basic princibles give an idea why the digitalization has done leaps in the last half century and why they have lead us to the current technology advances.

IEEE Signal Processing Society has nice coffee read regarding the digital revolution.

 
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