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Back into audio after retiring...(tl;dr Help!)

Doodski

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with a $6k system budget, maybe the question is what is the best active speaker for $5k...
Keeping in mind that the volume output requirement is specified as loud, lots of various types of music will be played by a assortment of people and the system will also used for movies with lots of bottom end anddd the room is 16.5'(5m) x 25'(7.62m) x 10' high(3m). That necessitates moving some air and having bigger cabinets and probably a large 3 or 4 way with a big woofer or woofers for longevity and efficiency.
 

q3cpma

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with a $6k system budget, maybe the question is what is the best active speaker for $5k...
Either a pair of Neumann KH420 (6000€ without VAT) or (Neumann KH120 or Genelec 8030C) * 2 + (Neumann KH750DSP or Genelec 7350A) * 2 which should be around 2500~2700€.
The problem is: the Neumann sub needs an iPad application to be fully useable, which is just pathetic for pro equipement and the Genelec 7350A needs the GLM kit (~330€) and has no dip switches for those who don't want or can't use GLM - UNIX users, for example.
So either choose your poison or pick only the monitors which are extremely good, robust and easy to use (no mandatory application, no DSP inside) and some other subs like Rythmik/SVS/Velodyne/HSU and do the room correction yourself.

Though I guess the JBL 708p should be mentioned if you want volume; I just don't think it's built as well as Neumann/Genelec. Fortunately, it has a 5 year warranty.

Though I continue to say that if you can try these, you should do it. I've only heard incredible praise for those, even from people who've heard everything already.
RL901K-Perspektive_V1.png
 
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6sigma

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Keeping in mind that the volume output requirement is specified as loud, lots of various types of music will be played by a assortment of people and the system will also used for movies with lots of bottom end anddd the room is 16.5'(5m) x 25'(7.62m) x 10' high(3m). That necessitates moving some air and having bigger cabinets and probably a large 3 or 4 way with a big woofer or woofers for longevity and efficiency.

A couple of thoughts. The stereo system will not be a part of our home theater. It will be used strictly for listening to music. My wife and I are the only people who will actually use the system and we'll play it for family when they come to visit. Sitting here at 4:30 a.m my house is quiet. A crude SPL shows 10-12dB as what I'd see as a noise floor. At that level, I can imagine a "worst case" need from the system of 80dB. I don't disagree with the notion that we'll need to move some air, but there won't be any movie or television needs.
 

BDWoody

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You want 8" woofers at least. Two JBL 708p or two Neumann KH310. MiniDSP SHD Studio, which has Dirac. Some monoprice cables. Under 6k with tax.

Later buy a sub if you really want.

I'd second that setup, or something very similar...

@beefkabob , you still liking your JBL's? Listening to my 708p's now in my 14'x18' main listening area, and am once again thankful I saw your post way back when! For $2k for the pair...pretty pleased.
 

BDWoody

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. Over the next week or two I plan to enhance/enlarge the budget and get a grip on some of the new options available. The speakers will definitely need the most deliberation!

Now you're talking!!

For me, it's a lot easier making a significant purchase if I can have real confidence in what I'm buying. Before a lot of this info was available, it was hard to know what you'd need to know...now, it is free for the reading.

Looking forward to seeing what you put together.
 

beefkabob

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I'd second that setup, or something very similar...

@beefkabob , you still liking your JBL's? Listening to my 708p's now in my 14'x18' main listening area, and am once again thankful I saw your post way back when! For $2k for the pair...pretty pleased.

I wasn't the original deal poster, but I'm glad you love them. I certainly love mine! I wish I had also bought a bunch of 705p to make a surround system or have speakers for other rooms.
 

beefkabob

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A couple of thoughts. The stereo system will not be a part of our home theater. It will be used strictly for listening to music. My wife and I are the only people who will actually use the system and we'll play it for family when they come to visit. Sitting here at 4:30 a.m my house is quiet. A crude SPL shows 10-12dB as what I'd see as a noise floor. At that level, I can imagine a "worst case" need from the system of 80dB. I don't disagree with the notion that we'll need to move some air, but there won't be any movie or television needs.

80db is pretty soft.

The 705p - 1000 each retail. Slightly less market price. Rarely a bargain to be found.
KH120A - 699 each retail - some bargains used out there. easier to get a somewhat lower price - www.proaudiostar.com often has 15% off coupons
genelec 8341A - 3100 each retail if you want to spend way more for something somewhat better
 
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6sigma

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80db is pretty soft.

The 705p - 1000 each retail. Slightly less market price. Rarely a bargain to be found.
KH120A - 699 each retail - some bargains used out there. easier to get a somewhat lower price - www.proaudiostar.com often has 15% off coupons
genelec 8341A - 3100 each retail if you want to spend way more for something somewhat better

Even with the furnace on, the ambient noise in the room is measuring 20-22dB. My "80dB" is a guess at best. Even guessing 100dB on peaks, I'm reading the measurements and graphs on some of these speakers and they look as if they'd perform well in the room. I'm still reading Toole and will try to get my head around what "somewhat better" really means when comparing a $2000 pair of 705P's to $6200 worth of 8314A's. Thanks for all the help!
 

Dj7675

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I think the biggest question is if you are going with passive speakers plus amps or active speakers. I think it would be important to attempt to demo both. For example Revel F208 or F36 with the NC400 amp, or something like the JBL 708P. In our living room we have the 708P's with the Minidsp SHD Studio. For music, that combo plus Roon works really well. It is a very clean, great sounding setup.
Do you have a Revel dealer close (or any other well measuring brand) to go and listen?
 
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6sigma

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I think the biggest question is if you are going with passive speakers plus amps or active speakers. I think it would be important to attempt to demo both. For example Revel F208 or F36 with the NC400 amp, or something like the JBL 708P. In our living room we have the 708P's with the Minidsp SHD Studio. For music, that combo plus Roon works really well. It is a very clean, great sounding setup.
Do you have a Revel dealer close (or any other well measuring brand) to go and listen?

Good suggestions! I have dealers within 200 miles, so not an afternoon outing. However, I'm planning the trips needed to hear several things that have been brought up here. Revel/JBL owners who have owned other speakers have great confidence in the research/measurements and have confirmed that confidence by owning/hearing them. Those are strong endorsements of Toole's work!
 

beefkabob

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I've never heard the Revel. My guess is they'll sound more pleasing as they hide recording defects, but less true to the source material. Also you'll need an amp, preamp, DAC, and streamer or some integrated mix, hopefully with room correction.

Of course you'll need stands for any of the monitors, if you don't have them already.
 

beefkabob

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My problem with listening tests is that they're misleading unless properly controlled. You will not gain anything useful from 99% of what you can do at a store. Different speaker locations, not blind, mismatched volume, delays between sources, etc. Best to go off measurements and budget.
 

gene_stl

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If I were doing it over in this day and age I would be looking at the various powered speakers wherein the amps and drivers and crossovers are all matched up by engineers rather than golden ears.

One thing I did when the audio bug flared back up about one and a half years ago , was go to Axpona (Audio Exposition of North America) There are other shows and may be one closer to you (Axpona is in Chicago. There is also RockyMountain Audio Fest in Denver and several other shows including one that just happened in Florida) That gives you the opportunity to hear things. Some of the objectives I had going into Axpona was to hear a few class D amps to convince myself I "could not hear a difference". I couldn't I also listened to a variety of things I had been reading about such as open baffle speakers and a Linkwitz set up. (interestingly Dr. Floyd Toole told me that Sigfried Linkwitz never would bring his speakers in for spinorama testing. Hmmm!)

At Axpona I heard Vanatoo self powered wireless speakers and they sounded great. I had a packet of CDs with me of music I was familiar with which without asserting accuracy may be better at least tells you whether it sounds similar to what you are accustomed to hearing.

The topics I had to catch up on were as follows: Hi Res Audio files and formats including having missed the entire SACD versus DVD Audio format wars. Network Attached Storage. Ripping CDs and SACDs MCH MultiChannel Audio!!!!!

I feel I would be remiss in talking to someone like you if i didn't send you over to www.quadrophonicquad.com where you can hear lots about multichannel audio. The promise from back in the day of discrete and hi rez multi channel audio can be fulfilled in this day and age. It makes matters much more complex. But that is the direction I am going in. Dr. AIX Mark Waldreps book helped me very much and saved me tons of time.
I also happen to like it when someones prejudices match mine. But the snake oil tsunami started prior to my leaving audio so I already had gotten into shouting matches with lame brains about whether cables and audio interconnects made an audible difference. No one had had the chutzpa to imply a power cable made a difference back in the 90s when I turned away for a while.
 
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6sigma

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You folks have been unbelievably generous in trying to coach an old man back up to speed in audio. While this thread has been going on I've had several back channel discussions with some of you here. I've also renewed contacts with folks in the audio field that I've known from decades back. Several things have become clear. First, even though I'm not trying to build a desktop or near field system, incredibly affordable products and useful technology for those applications have blurred the lines between exclusively near field items and those that can also extend to a listening room.

A second "discovery" involves how many DACs are out there and just how many ways we have to get music to a DAC from phone & laptop. Each of those can be a rabbit hole. Finally, the cost of a great many audio components appears to allow us to build really enjoyable & convenient systems at lower costs than I had imagined. Whether passive or active, cost-effective choices are abundant.

In other words, it looks like this objective approach pays dividends!

Again, I thank each of you for all the suggestions and pointers to great products & information. Back to the rabbit holes....
 
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MattHooper

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My problem with listening tests is that they're misleading unless properly controlled. You will not gain anything useful from 99% of what you can do at a store. Different speaker locations, not blind, mismatched volume, delays between sources, etc. Best to go off measurements and budget.


I could not disagree more.


I mean, perhaps store auditions haven't worked out for you so I can't speak to that. But in my experience, auditions of speakers - be it at friends/acquaintances/stores...even sometimes audio shows - have been very valuable. I can get a very good idea of the sound of a speaker at a store, especially when I'm able to play with speaker position/listening position, and hear my own test tracks. I am never surprised by the sound of a speaker that I auditioned elsewhere, that I ended up using at home. Usually I hear the very characteristics that drew me in at the audition, but dialed in to even better effect in my home. That's not uttery surprising - as Floyd Toole has told us, we have the ability to often "listen through the room" to hear the general characteristics of a speaker (above certain frequencies). I've always found that to be the case.


I think speaker measurements tend to be more useful to certain people in terms of knowledge and mindset. Some people can look at the measurements and, to the degree they care about, have a good idea if they'll like it. Some people just want as accurate as possible, select speakers that measure that way, and then don't think more about it and get on listening, attributing anything they don't like to the source material.
All of which is great if you are the type of person who this works for.


Personally I've never been able to gain enough from measurements to tell me how much I'll like a speaker, or if I'll want to keep listening. I've auditioned plenty of speakers that measure very well that left me looking at my watch, ready to leave after only a few tracks. I've also auditione speakers that measure pretty well, and some "not so well," that I loved. So the "best to go off measurements" will depend on the individual, it seems to me.
 

beefkabob

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I could not disagree more.


I mean, perhaps store auditions haven't worked out for you so I can't speak to that.

In store listening led to me overbuying a sub. Not a terrible thing, but I could have done better. Also almost led to buying mediocre, overpriced speakers. No thanks!
 
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