BACCH4Mac Pro Edition - For those considering BACCH

[Ilkless]

There are two ways to recoup R&D costs.

1. Sell many units for cheap.
2. Sell few units for a lot of money.

Now of course I do not presume to speak for Theoretica App. Phys. here but I do note from reading many customer testimonials that this product is not like anything else in hifi, i.e. you plug it in and it works as you would expect. Some measurement and setup is required and there may be a learning curve (though I would expect that the learning curve would be less than say, implementing Dirac or running Acourate or even building your own PC). Therefore some level of customer support is required. From testimonials, and from my own correspondence with them, I know that their customer support is excellent. If this product hits the mainstream and they start selling many units, this brings with it its own problems with sourcing parts, assembly, scale, hiring support staff, and so on. They MAY decide to remain a boutique operation with high prices and providing high level of customer support to fewer customers than to sell it cheap and deal with a deluge of customers.

Speaking as a soon-to-be customer, of course I would love to pay less, but not if paying less is unsustainable for this company. Theoretica are not like a DAC manufacturer where there are hundreds of companies to choose from and it doesn't matter if a few dozen of them go under. These guys are the only ones with this product.

Also, something like BACCH undermines the hardware fetishisation that is endemic among audio enthusiasts. Spending 5-6k and then needing to set up an esoteric, bleeding-edge DSP software (the effects of which are not the result of some plug-and-play physical box) with in-ear microphones and head tracking is a non-starter for many people compared to the instant, physically-tangible, gratification of buying a 6k DAC with shiny LED-lit glass marbles.

 

[Zoomer]

These guys are the only ones with this product.

When you look at their product offering over the years, they have brought down prices substantially already. I take that as a sign that they are not a boutique operation by choice but by necessity. From the enthusiasm Prof. Choueiri exudes I assume he would be happy make this technique as widely available as possible.
As an academic spin-off they have achieved remarkable results in developing a consumer-oriented product. But there is still a long way to go before it'll be even remotely mainstream. For one thing, the level of customer support by Prof. Choueiri himself is just not scalable.
I have my doubts though if they'll be able to go much further by themselves opening up a bigger market with a lower price point. Which would be a shame, since they won't be the only ones with a viable XTC product forever.

 

[Zoomer]

I have heard rumors that some people use Mac OS virtualized in windows.

Interesting. Do you have more info on that?
EDIT: I mean how to's and experiences specific to running BACCH in this way.

 

[Ilkless]

When you look at their product offering over the years, they have brought down prices substantially already. I take that as a sign that they are not a boutique operation by choice but by necessity. From the enthusiasm Prof. Choueiri exudes I assume he would be happy make this technique as widely available as possible.
As an academic spin-off they have achieved remarkable results in developing a consumer-oriented product. But there is still a long way to go before it'll be even remotely mainstream. For one thing, the level of customer support by Prof. Choueiri himself is just not scalable.
I have my doubts though if they'll be able to go much further by themselves opening up a bigger market with a lower price point. Which would be a shame, since they won't be the only ones with a viable XTC product forever.

Yes, BACCH Audiophile is out of my budget for now, but I do think it's very fairly priced considering the hardware (in-ear mics and RME interface) it comes with, the niche nature of the software with very involved setup, the support required. And as I said further up this thread, it has an uphill battle against the hardware fetishisation endemic in the hobby that favours the instant gratification of a physically-tangible artisanal DAC with LED light marbles or something.

 

[Zoomer]

Yes, BACCH Audiophile is out of my budget for now

Same here, that's why I'd love to see them go mainstream

I do think it's very fairly priced considering the hardware ... it comes with, ... the support required.

True, but associated HW cost and complexity are exactly the issues that need to be addressed if BACCH Audiophile is to go mainstream.

In-ear mics and webcam are obviously essential for delivering the intended result.
The other HW requirements are the real hurdle, not only financially, but because to me they seem so wasteful:

- An Audio Interface which strictly speaking is only needed for getting the BACCH-BM microphone signals to the BACCH-dSP application on the Mac
during the calibration/filter design procedure. RME is recommended, but other Audio Interfaces can be used if you already happen to own one. Third-party software can do the loopback in absence of the RME.

- A Mac Mini which will only be used for BACCH (the scenario for most if not all PC users).

If Dirac can generate my filters on its mothership instead of on my hardware, I wonder if BACCH can't do something similar? That would eliminate the need for the RME.

Porting software from Mac to PC is a thing, that would eliminate the need for a MAC.

I realise that both solutions (if possible at all) would be MAJOR projects, which probably don't align with Theoretica's current focus (see all their PRO offerings). That's why I said I doubt Theoretica can overcome these hurdles by itself. Meaning: without partnering or a licensing model.

 

[Gwreck]

Interesting. Do you have more info on that?
EDIT: I mean how to's and experiences specific to running BACCH in this way.

I believe in one of his videos Dr. Choueri mentioned it. I sent an email to the BACCH tech support about running it in a windows with Mac OS virtual machine.

 

[Gwreck]

There are two ways to recoup R&D costs.

1. Sell many units for cheap.
2. Sell few units for a lot of money.

Now of course I do not presume to speak for Theoretica App. Phys. here but I do note from reading many customer testimonials that this product is not like anything else in hifi, i.e. you plug it in and it works as you would expect. Some measurement and setup is required and there may be a learning curve (though I would expect that the learning curve would be less than say, implementing Dirac or running Acourate or even building your own PC). Therefore some level of customer support is required. From testimonials, and from my own correspondence with them, I know that their customer support is excellent. If this product hits the mainstream and they start selling many units, this brings with it its own problems with sourcing parts, assembly, scale, hiring support staff, and so on. They MAY decide to remain a boutique operation with high prices and providing high level of customer support to fewer customers than to sell it cheap and deal with a deluge of customers.

Speaking as a soon-to-be customer, of course I would love to pay less, but not if paying less is unsustainable for this company. Theoretica are not like a DAC manufacturer where there are hundreds of companies to choose from and it doesn't matter if a few dozen of them go under. These guys are the only ones with this product.

The tech support is the literal best ever. I cannot imagine better and my tech support person has complete knowledge of the product. The conversations with my assigned person are almost worth the price of the product by itself.

 

[Abe_W]

Does the Baach kit have any similarities to Apple's spatial audio or Sony's 360 reality audio? the latter optimized for headphones while the Baach is optimized for stereo speakers at mid-field & far-field listening distances? If that's the case, i would think it is only a matter of time before the big gigs like Sony, Apple, Yamaha and others offer something for regular stereo listening at a more affordable cost.

 

[Gwreck]

Does the Baach kit have any similarities to Apple's spatial audio or Sony's 360 reality audio? the latter optimized for headphones while the Baach is optimized for stereo speakers at mid-field & far-field listening distances? If that's the case, i would think it is only a matter of time before the big gigs like Sony, Apple, Yamaha and others offer something for regular stereo listening at a more affordable cost.

Apple uses generic HRFT and possibly a somewhat personalized HRTF for their headphone spatial audio. I assume the same for Sony. I think they translate ans object based audio format into the HRTF for headphones.Potentially BACCH can use an HRTF but only for specific circumstances. BACCH is crosstalk cancellation. I have used some of these generic HRTF formats played back with BACCH and they can produce surround with 2 channel audio. The Sony ps5 has some combination of crosstalk cancellation and HRTF for its virtual surround. The Sony ps5 virtual surround is unbelievably bad sounding.

 

[phoenixdogfan]

Right now I'm running a Mele Quieter 3 fanless Windows PC. It's about the size of an old Sony Betamax Movie tape, and it renders HDR 4K to my C1 Oled perfectly, runs JRiver flawlessly, allows me to run the most sophisticated version of Dirac, without a hiccup. runs my Delphonica software crossover, accepts a $20 wirless keyboard from Logitech, runs all the desktop streaming software I want (Netflix, Tubi, NBA TV, MLB TV, Sling TV, Qobuz), is super snappy as a browser, costs $260, and will accept an NVME SD drive. So yeah, it works perfectly, took around 1 hour to set up, and is now my daily driver. Did I mention the picture (4K HDR) is breathtaking on the desktop apps, and that the the stereo and 5.1 channel sound off the desktop apps is incredibly good. And that set up of Dirac, which can be finicky was easy enough to figure out.

Given all that, I have the utmost reluctance at this point to change to a Mac M1 Mini, no matter how capable, because the Mele is completely capable for what I currently run. It would really, really help Bacch if they would create a version which can run on Windows. I don't even know, for example, if I can get on the M1 Mini, a 5.1 channel Dolby Digital LPCM Netflix audio feed via a desktop app to send to JRiver where I do all my DSP (Dirac, PEQ, Bass Mgt etc).

I know it's a Jim Dandy video editor b/c all the reviewers ever want to talk about is how quickly it can edit 4K Video in Final Cut, and how well it does in standard computer speed tests, but which software and desktop apps can be run natively on the M1, specifically, the stuff I run, not so much. And, as I understand it, Bacch4Mac does not process multichannel, only 2 channel which makes it very expensive for something that can only improve half the stuff I listen to,and maybe not even the multi mic stuff very much if at all. So for right now, I really think I'm holding back on this one.

Also, if Bacch4Mac is so wonderful, and Theoretica want to sell units, they need to find a way to get it into retail venues, so it can be demonstrated. Plunking down the price of a Mac M1 Mini AND the entry level module is well over $1500, and will require plenty of sweat equity to get up and running. That's a lot to put down for a system that's never had a serious review by someone reputable like Amir. Even If I were dissatisfied and had my money refunded, I would still be out a lot of time, and wind up with a Mac M1 Mini, I may or may not have a use for.

 

[Gwreck]

Right now I'm running a Mele Quieter 2 fanless Windows PC. It's about the size of an old Sony Betamax Movie tape, and it renders HDR 4K to my C1 Oled perfectly, runs JRiver flawlessly, allows me to run the most sophisticated version of Dirac, without a hiccup. runs my Delphonica software crossover, accepts a $20 wirless keyboard from Logitech, runs all the desktop streaming software I want (Netflix, Tubi, NBA TV, MLB TV, Sling TV, Qobuz), is super snappy as a browser, costs $260, and will accept an NVME SD drive. So yeah, it works perfectly, took around 1 hour to set up, and is now my daily driver. Did I mention the picture is breathtaking on the desktop apps, the stereo and 5.1 channel sound off the desktop apps is great. And that set up of Dirac, which can be finicky was easy enough to figure out.

Given all that, I have the utmost reluctance at this point to change to a Mac M1 Mini, no matter how capable, because the Mele is completely capable for what I currently run. It would really, really help Bacch if they would create a version which can run on Windows. I don't even know, for example, if I can get on the M1 Mini, a 5.1 channel Dolby Digital LPCM Netflix audio feed via a desktop app to send to JRiver where I do all my DSP (Dirac, PEQ, Bass Mgt etc).

know it's a Jim Dandy video editor b/c all the reviewers ever want to talk about is how quickly it can edit 4K Video in Final Cut, and how well it does in standard computer speed tests, but which software can be run natively on the M1, specifically, the stuff I run, not so much. And, as I understand it, Bacch4Mac does not process multichannel, only 2 channel which makes it very expensive for something that can only improve half the stuff I listen to. So for right now, I really think I'm holding back on this one.

BACCH can run multichannel virtualized into 2 channels in the pro edition you have access to the 3D mixer and using an HRTF and a multichannel source one can have 7.1 over their 2 channel system. Think of buying the Mac mini not as a separate computer but as an audio device. If you think about it that way it makes much more sense. A M1 Max mini with 16gb ram is still cheaper than many DAC or amps people would have no issue buying. Theoretica is a very small company and reprogramming BACCH for windows is not possible(they have told me this directly).

 

[phoenixdogfan]

BACCH can run multichannel virtualized into 2 channels in the pro edition you have access to the 3D mixer and using an HRTF and a multichannel source one can have 7.1 over their 2 channel system. Think of buying the Mac mini not as a separate computer but as an audio device. If you think about it that way it makes much more sense. A M1 Max mini with 16gb ram is still cheaper than many DAC or amps people would have no issue buying. Theoretica is a very small company and reprogramming BACCH for windows is not possible(they have told me this directly).

Yes, and the Pro Edition is $6980 not including a configured Mac M1 Mini which is an additional $1489, not counting the Webcam for $80. So what does virtualized even mean? Does it mean your two channel stereo will sound like a full on Atmos system (which is the claim Smyth Research makes regarding its A16 Realiser Speaker Edition) assuming it's a Netflix Atmos movie? Would like a little clarification on that one, inasmuch as the tarrif is over $8500.

 

[Gwreck]

Yes, and the Pro Edition is $6980 not including a configured Mac M1 Mini which is an additional $1489, not counting the Webcam for $80. So what does virtualized even mean? Does it mean your two channel stereo will sound like a full on Atmos system (which is the claim Smyth Research makes regarding its A16 Realiser Speaker Edition) assuming it's a Netflix Atmos movie? Would like a little clarification on that one, inasmuch as the tarrif is over $8500.

It can do up to 7.1 surround through 2 speakers.(by virtual I mean that the 3D mixer will mimic the location of the speakers in a surround system using an HRTF then down mixed to 2 channels. The recent review of BACCH in the absolute sound covers this well. This is probably not the most cost efficient or least complex way to do this. As a person who enjoys using BACCH the cost of the Mac is worth it to me but I can see how this can get expensive and I’m not even discussing the dedicated SP hardware. Affordability is a relative thing is audio and the system can get expensive. I started with the intro version and basically upgraded every year until I have the “pro.” The audiophile version is probably where the most bang for the buck is but I’m a gadget junkie and enjoy the somewhat tinkering nature of it. The basic version gives one a taste of the effect but is not as good as the audiophile version with the mic’s and head tracking.

On the computer side of things it’s oddly picky about which Mac to use as before the m1 the best hardware was an outdated max mini that was years old. I had bought an i3 Mac mini that all of the specs would say it was faster than the old Mac mini. It ran like trash but runs well on the m1. I also ran it on a several year old i5 iMac 27 inch and it ran well on that hardware. One certainly doesn’t have to buy a preconfigured Mac and it can be installed on any Mac. A mac mini m1 with 16gb ram is new for $899 and if one can find a way to get the 10% discount that can help. I cannot remember which of the old mac mini was the best to run it but that may be a cheaper option.

 

[phoenixdogfan]

It can do up to 7.1 surround through 2 speakers.(by virtual I mean that the 3D mixer will mimic the location of the speakers in a surround system using an HRTF then down mixed to 2 channels. The recent review of BACCH in the absolute sound covers this well. This is probably not the most cost efficient or least complex way to do this. As a person who enjoys using BACCH the cost of the Mac is worth it to me but I can see how this can get expensive and I’m not even discussing the dedicated SP hardware. Affordability is a relative thing is audio and the system can get expensive. I started with the intro version and basically upgraded every year until I have the “pro.” The audiophile version is probably where the most bang for the buck is but I’m a gadget junkie and enjoy the somewhat tinkering nature of it. The basic version gives one a taste of the effect but is not as good as the audiophile version with the mic’s and head tracking.

On the computer side of things it’s oddly picky about which Mac to use as before the m1 the best hardware was an outdated max mini that was years old. I had bought an i3 Mac mini that all of the specs would say it was faster than the old Mac mini. It ran like trash but runs well on the m1. I also ran it on a several year old i5 iMac 27 inch and it ran well on that hardware. One certainly doesn’t have to buy a preconfigured Mac and it can be installed on any Mac. A mac mini m1 with 16gb ram is new for $899 and if one can find a way to get the 10% discount that can help. I cannot remember which of the old mac mini was the best to run it but that may be a cheaper option.

It's not that it's unaffordable or that it's a specialized product. I own a Smyth A16 Realizer which is $4k, 4 LS 50s, an Octo 8, Purifi Amp, C1 Oled, two subs. and two world class headphones. I could swing it easily, but I always look at the value proposition, and frankly I don't see that it's been demonstrated. OTOH, I hear people talking about it as revolutionary, and I am open, but I'd have to see how I could make it work. And if it it's going to do virtualized mulltichannel that should be ATMOS. As I have already pointed out, the Smyth A16 speaker edition does 16 channel virtualized Atmos over two channels, and I would only have to pay $3k to have my existing unit upgraded for that. So again, not sure it cuts it as a value proposition.

 

[Gwreck]

It's not that it's unaffordable or that it's a specialized product. I own a Smyth A16 Realizer which is $4k, 4 LS 50s, an Octo 8, Purifi Amp, C1 Oled, two subs. and two world class headphones. I could swing it easily, but I always look at the value proposition, and frankly I don't see that it's been demonstrated. OTOH, I hear people talking about it as revolutionary, and I am open, but I'd have to see how I could make it work. And if it it's going to do virtualized mulltichannel that should be ATMOS. As I have already pointed out, the Smyth A16 speaker edition does 16 channel virtualized Atmos over two channels, and I would only have to pay $3k to have my existing unit upgraded for that. So again, not sure it cuts it as a value proposition.

Sounds like you have some very nice gear and I have always been interested in the Smyth. BACCH can be made to do surround but its best use is for stereo playback. Unfortunately the benefits BACCH provides if described sound like audiophile hyperbole and one would have to hear it to understand the benefits. BACCH is not subtle and is something total different that the Smyth except for the fact that it is a psychoacoustic processor. It would be overkill but I think the smyth would complement BACCH if used together. Think of the BACCH as turning a pair of stereo speakers into headphones that the Smyth would send its signal to for surround.

I have a pHRTF for Dolby atmos that once I get the connections set I’m going to try to use BACCH for virtual atmos with my Xbox series X. It’s more of an experiment than a necessity but some of the atmos headphone demos played over my system with BACCH sound pretty convincing.

 

[Eurasian]

It can do up to 7.1 surround through 2 speakers.(by virtual I mean that the 3D mixer will mimic the location of the speakers in a surround system using an HRTF then down mixed to 2 channels. The recent review of BACCH in the absolute sound covers this well. This is probably not the most cost efficient or least complex way to do this. As a person who enjoys using BACCH the cost of the Mac is worth it to me but I can see how this can get expensive and I’m not even discussing the dedicated SP hardware. Affordability is a relative thing is audio and the system can get expensive. I started with the intro version and basically upgraded every year until I have the “pro.” The audiophile version is probably where the most bang for the buck is but I’m a gadget junkie and enjoy the somewhat tinkering nature of it. The basic version gives one a taste of the effect but is not as good as the audiophile version with the mic’s and head tracking.

On the computer side of things it’s oddly picky about which Mac to use as before the m1 the best hardware was an outdated max mini that was years old. I had bought an i3 Mac mini that all of the specs would say it was faster than the old Mac mini. It ran like trash but runs well on the m1. I also ran it on a several year old i5 iMac 27 inch and it ran well on that hardware. One certainly doesn’t have to buy a preconfigured Mac and it can be installed on any Mac. A mac mini m1 with 16gb ram is new for $899 and if one can find a way to get the 10% discount that can help. I cannot remember which of the old mac mini was the best to run it but that may be a cheaper option.

The mini I have is a late 2012 which was the recommended platform when I bought B4M. Edgar tells me that this computer will not work with future versions and suggested upgrading to an M1.

 

[Abe_W]

Apple uses generic HRFT and possibly a somewhat personalized HRTF for their headphone spatial audio. I assume the same for Sony. I think they translate ans object based audio format into the HRTF for headphones.Potentially BACCH can use an HRTF but only for specific circumstances. BACCH is crosstalk cancellation. I have used some of these generic HRTF formats played back with BACCH and they can produce surround with 2 channel audio. The Sony ps5 has some combination of crosstalk cancellation and HRTF for its virtual surround. The Sony ps5 virtual surround is unbelievably bad sounding.

I have the Sony HT-A9 system (which is 360 reality compliant) in my living room since i can't do a full atmos rig in this room. It seems to do the job for me.

For the asking price, Baach must beat it by a mile? I guess i should audit it at some point and decide.

 

[Gwreck]

The mini I have is a late 2012 which was the recommended platform when I bought B4M. Edgar tells me that this computer will not work with future versions and suggested upgrading to an

I have the Sony HT-A9 system (which is 360 reality compliant) in my living room since i can't do a full atmos rig in this room. It seems to do the job for me.

For the asking price, Baach must beat it by a mile? I guess i should audit it at some point and decide.

It’s an apples and oranges comparison as BACCH is an add on for an existing stereo system and the H9 is whole surround system. Id much prefer an H9 for how theater.

 

[Sir Sanders Zingmore]

The mini I have is a late 2012 which was the recommended platform when I bought B4M. Edgar tells me that this computer will not work with future versions and suggested upgrading to an M1.

I have the same mini (late 2012). I wasn't aware that it would no longer work. Thanks for the info

 

[Gwreck]

I have the same mini (late 2012). I wasn't aware that it would no longer work. Thanks for the info

At least old macs can have some residual value