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BACCH4Mac Pro Edition - For those considering BACCH

Theoretica Appl. Physics

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Very helpful, thanks Buddy.

If I could summarise some of your points just to make sure I've understood you correctly, this is what you appear to be saying:
  • Setting aside the question of direct:reflected sound ratio, in terms of lateral sweet spot, there will be no (or only negligible) advantage in placing the speakers closer together.
  • In the absence of head-tracking, the lateral sweet spot is never going to extend more than approximately 40cm (+/- 20cm) under any circumstances (40cm figure taken from the BACCH web page).
In other words, the idea that both my partner and I might enjoy the full (or near-full) effects of BACCH at the same time is probably not a realistic one?

Cheers,
Andreas

All of the points you summarized are correct. If you give your partner the sweet spot and you sit outside of it you would simply hear your system sounding as if BACCH is not on (in fact, slightly better because of the lack of comb filtering).

Regards,
Buddy @ Theoretica
 

hifibean

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Why do you think that it isn't absurd or confusing? How much sound energy do you think must one speaker transmit to induce a microphonic response in another speaker? Then, how much energy must that second speaker generate through its motor/voice coil to send an electrical signal back the speaker cable through the amplifier stage given the impedance mismatch?

In practical terms, crosstalk between speakers is quite absurd and opens the door to all kinds of nonsense like the value of cable capacitance.

When you mix terms like "aural crosstalk" and "speaker crosstalk", it's difficult to discern the subject. Is it ears or speakers? Psycho acoustics or electronics? This is where confusion is introduced into the discussion.




I haven't criticized BACCH as much as I have the underhanded way it appears to be marketed here. I haven't criticized members beyond expressing concern with astro turfing, which is what another member raised too.

I HAVE been critical of what some people have written. But that's hardly a personal attack. Criticism is a cornerstone of the scientific method.


@GrimSurfer
You remember your first reply on the post which pissed me off with your unfair judgement on Baach before you even know what it is.

This is what you wrote and for me it reveals who who are in the first place. Now you wrote differently about Baach hey ('I haven't criticized BACCH as much as I have the underhanded way it appears to be marketed here ")



You wrote:


I hope I never hear the word BAACH ever again. If the best you can do is show us ham-fisted marketing, I'm thinking that the software development team is a C-.

If you have a product to sell, declare your affiliation to it like an adult. The breathless and needlessly long evangelical statements posted under the guise of "fellow traveller" cheapen whatever you're selling.”
Why don't you use 14 days trial and give it a try first. Also, there are bunch of XTC articles on the net you can search and read. If you have EXTREMELY HIGH LEVEL OF SCIENCE then there are some maths you can read as well.

Do you think Princeton University promotes something not real science ? (https://www.princeton.edu/3D3A/Projects.html). Common sense, just common sense without reading much, even my 12 year kid can know that something out from a famous university is not a joke. You make a joke here @GrimSurfer

Now you wrote 'Criticism is a cornerstone of the scientific method." --> need to back up your points with scientific facts rather than "oh I and other my highly-level-of-science friends here think that things have to be this way to be true so if we don't like Baach then any discussion on it has to be marked with 'astro turfing'" then write them out from your brain. That is why I told you just to do a little bit of homework on what Baach is before framing it as what you have framed. And you wanted to see my mom. That's fine. If you go surf in Australia and had a chance to see her, she would teach you some maths, common sense, and how to behave.

Some people having no idea about science wanted to talk science, crazy!!!
 
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Krunok

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@GrimSurfer
You remember your first reply on the post which pissed me off with your unfair judgement on Baach before you even know what it is.

This is what you wrote and for me it reveals who who are in the first place. Now you wrote differently about Baach hey ('I haven't criticized BACCH as much as I have the underhanded way it appears to be marketed here ")



You wrote:


I hope I never hear the word BAACH ever again. If the best you can do is show us ham-fisted marketing, I'm thinking that the software development team is a C-.

If you have a product to sell, declare your affiliation to it like an adult. The breathless and needlessly long evangelical statements posted under the guise of "fellow traveller" cheapen whatever you're selling.”
Why don't you use 14 days trial and give it a try first. Also, there are bunch of XTC articles on the net you can search and read. If you have EXTREMELY HIGH LEVEL OF SCIENCE then there are some maths you can read as well.

Do you think Princeton University promotes something not real science ? (https://www.princeton.edu/3D3A/Projects.html). Common sense, just common sense without reading much, even my 12 year kid can know that something out from a famous university is not a joke. You make a joke here @GrimSurfer

Now you wrote 'Criticism is a cornerstone of the scientific method." --> need to back up your points with scientific facts rather than "oh I and other my highly-level-of-science friends here think that things have to be this way to be true so if we don't like Baach then any discussion on it has to be marked with 'astro turfing'" then write them out from your brain. That is why I told you just to do a little bit of homework on what Baach is before framing it as what you have framed. And you wanted to see my mom. That's fine. If you go surf in Australia and had a chance to see her, she would teach you some maths, common sense, and how to behave.

That's water under the bridge, so let's leave it behind..
 

onion

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I found this video of Prof Choueiri giving a talk at a HiFi show. The demonstration of the recording where he walks around the listener; and then listening back with and without filter - was interesting. As were his comments on reverb. He alluded to the fact that listeners may prefer a 'lively' room with more reflections but the BACCH filter works better with a dead room.
 

tyleroz

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I just want to chime in that I am a happy user of BACCH4Mac (even though my 8gb MacBook Pro struggle with it). I can’t hear the “circling” effect most likely due to my room but the results are pretty amazing. I am tempted to go for the hardware version to save the hassles of messing with computer but still I think it is worthy to go for it.
 

andreasmaaan

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Also, I've just read the Prof. Choueiri paper, "Optimal Crosstalk Cancellation for Binaural Audio with Two Loudspeakers", and while I think the basics of BACCH are now reasonably clear to me, I still don't understand where/how the listener's HRTF (or the generic HRTF) fit into the processing of the signal. Can anyone sketch out what is going on here please?
 

Theoretica Appl. Physics

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Also, I've just read the Prof. Choueiri paper, "Optimal Crosstalk Cancellation for Binaural Audio with Two Loudspeakers", and while I think the basics of BACCH are now reasonably clear to me, I still don't understand where/how the listener's HRTF (or the generic HRTF) fit into the processing of the signal. Can anyone sketch out what is going on here please?

Thank you andreasmaaan for asking this good question. It is one that we are asked often enough that I think should go on our FAQ page.

First let me clarify that, unless you are referring to the version of Prof. Choueiri’s paper that appears in chapter 5 of the book Immersive Sound (see my earlier citation of that book), the earlier paper does not talk about the role of HRTF in designing BACCH filters. That earlier paper is about explaining the fundamental problems in crosstalk cancellation (XTC) and, for the sake of clarity, uses an idealization of two point sources for the speakers and two spatial locations points for the listener’s ears, neglecting the presence of the head. Therefore there was no HRTF in that explication (and none is really needed to explain the fundamental problems of XTC).

In Chapter 5 of the book Immersive Sound Prof. Choueiri updates the research presented in that earlier paper and adds a section titled "Individualized BACCH Filters” where he explains how to design an individualized (or custom) BACCH filters for a given listener’s HRTF. That is precisely the method used in BACCH4Mac to make BACCH filters based on HRTF measurements.

If you are mathematically minded (and you seem to be) you can read that section of that chapter and you would learn exactly how BACCH filters are produced by BACCH4Mac.

For the sake of others and people who do not have access to that book, and in order to answer your question in plain English, I provide below, a "simple” explanation of the role of HRTF in the design of BACCH filters by BACCH-dSP, which is the Mac application at the heart of the BACCH4Mac product (https://www.theoretica.us/bacch-dsp/).

To make a BACCH filter, the listener sits in the intended sweet spot and inserts the BACCH-BM binaural microphones in his ears so that each of the two small microphone capsules is at the entrance of each of the ear canals. He then clicks on a button that starts the measurement process, which sends, sequentially, an exponential sine sweep (from 20 Hz to 20 kHz) from each of the two loudspeakers. The sound is recorded by the microphones as it reaches the entrances to the ear canals after having interacted with the head, the torso and the pinnae of the listener. This measurement is a (small) sample of the individual’s HRTF. Strictly speaking the HRTF (Head Related Transfer Function) is the series of many (often more than 1500) such measurements taken each, in an anechoic environment, with the sound sources (the speakers) located at a different location on a virtual sphere surrounding the listener. Luckily for making a BACCH filter we do not need the entire HRTF (which would take a very long time to measure and requires the listener to remain still during that long time). It needs only two elements of the whole HRTF set: those two measurements corresponding to the locations of the two speakers in question. These two measurements are processed using a standard mathematical method called de-convolution to result in a set of 4 impulse responses: each representing the impulse response of each of the two speakers measured at each of the two ears. This set of 4 IRs is often called BRIR in the research literature, and stands for "Binaural Room Impulse Response”. (In its default setting BACCH-dSP windows the BRIR to exclude refections in the room, so strictly speaking it should be called the BIR or more accurately “Binaural Impulse Response of the Speakers”. )

The BRIR is then used by the BACCH algorithm to produce a digital crosstalk cancellation (XTC) filter called the BACCH filter (in the form of a Finite Impulse Response (FIR) filter) following a method detailed in the last section of chapter 5 of the book. (For the technically minded: the method consists of a pseudo-inversion of the transfer function represented by the BRIR, optimizing a cost function consisting of XTC, tonal distortion and dynamic range, and using extreme frequency-dependent regularization that insures that the amplitude response of the filter is perfectly flat). A BACCH filter is a unique and special type of XTC filter that has no coloration (i.e. causes zero tonal distortion).

The BACCH filter thus produced by BACCH-dSP (it takes the embedded C++ program a fraction of a second to produce the filter) is then automatically loaded in an FFT-based 64-bit convolver inside BACCH-dSP which is used to convolve (a standard mathematical process that applies a finite impulse response filter to a signal) in real time the input audio signal with the BACCH filter to effect crosstalk cancellation at the ears of the listener sitting in the sweet spot.

(A similar filter design process is done to produce a set of more than 40 BACCH filters by interpolation for the case when head tracking is desired, with the requirement that 2 additional BRIRs be measured - one at each end of the desired area for head tracking - while the head tracking camera is recording the location of the measurements.)

A very good question often asked is “Does every listener require his/her own individualized BACCH filter?”

The short answer is generally no, as long as the playback system is the same, and the speakers and listening locations are also the same. In other words, the individual aspect of the HRTF used to make the filter is not nearly as important as (in decreasing order of importance): 1) the listening geometry and 2) the impulse response of the speakers themselves. This is strictly true if the speakers locations span less than an angle of about +/- 40 degrees measured at the listening location (which is often the case in serious stereo systems). Only if the speakers are at larger spans (or, unlikely, at a significant angle above or below the azimuthal [aka horizontal/equatorial] plane) does one need to make a BACCH filter for each listener.

To understand why this is so, one must understand a fundamental fact about spatial hearing illustrated in the two figures shown below (taken from the AES paper: Takeuchi et al. "Influence oflndividual HRTF on the performance of virtual acoustic Imaging Systems” Audio Engineering Society Convention 104, May 1998.). Figure 1 is a plot showing the subjective testing results of many listeners who were asked to locate a sound projected through a virtual acoustic imaging system (using the listener's HRTF) to a location in the azimuthal plane. Figure 2 is a plot of the subjective test results using a dummy HRTF instead of individual HRTFs used in Figure 1. Figure 1 illustrates the fact that a virtual acoustic imaging system designed with an individualized HRTF gives excellent spatial fidelity (data mostly lining up on the straight line joining the lower left corner to the upper right corner of the plot). Figure 2 shows that with non-individualzied (or mismatched) HRTFs spatial fidelity is obtained only for spans of +/- 40 degrees (as evidenced by the departure of the data from the straight line past that angular value).

In other words for sound sources (in the azimuthal plane) located within +/- 40 degrees span straight ahead of a listener, there is no need to bother using an individualized HRTF - any HRTF (e.g. that of a dummy head) would do. This is largely due to the fact sound from sources within a relatively small span head on and in the same horizontal plane as the head, interacts least with the pinnae (the outer part of the ear), which is the most individualized part of the ear’s morphology.

Therefore as long a the speakers are within a span that is not larger than +/- 40 degrees (most hi-fi systems have their speakers nearer the standard +/- 30 degree span) and as long as the speakers are not significantly (say more than 25 degrees) higher or lower from the horizontal plane where the listener’s head is located there should be no need to make an individual BACCH filter for every listener (i.e. all listeners could use the same BACCH filter to listen). Under such conditions the difference between the perceived spatial imaging obtained through an individualized or non-indviulaized BACCH filter, if audible, is subtle. Some BACCH users have reported detecting such differences (which are most likely due to departures from the conditions stated above) and prefer making an individualized BACCH filter for every person (wife, friend, visitor) whom they wish to give the experience of 3D imaging with the highest possible spatial fidelity.

Incidentally, the u-BACCH (where “u” stands for “universal” ) used in the Intro edition of BACCH4Mac are pre-made generic BACCH filters designed using a BRIR obtained from a generic HRTF (that of the standard dummy head Kemar) and assumes the speakers to behave like a theoretical point source.

I hope the above is clear and helpful.

Buddy
Senior Development Engineer @ Theoretica
 

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onion

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I have two music systems:
- Devialet phantom golds
- In-wall MK 300s and two front lt and rt X10 subwoofers, driven by Lyngdorf 3400 (part of an cinema room setup that also includes other speakers and an Anthem AV Amp)

In the same room, the in-wall setup shows a much worse impulse response as shown below.

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However, music sounds vastly better compared to the phantoms.

Switching the BACCH filter bypass switch on and off doesn't make an immediately obvious huge difference. However, I do not get any listening fatigue at all, and spatial clarity becomes obvious after a while. It's almost like it takes a bit of time for my perception to adjust. And the results are stunning.

There are some tracks where the effects are obvious and weird. The last track on the Roots album Game Theory has telephone answering machine messages in it, some of which are heard directly above my head.

The biggest pleasing impact apart from no listening fatigue, is the effect on vocals. The voice comes from a defined area in the room. Other details associated with the sound of the voice (e.g. sibilance, breathing sounds) also become obvious. It often sounds like a live performance in my room. Listening to singers like Ella Fitzgerald and Louis Armstrong is frankly mind-blowing.

Reflecting on this, I think I have a sub-optimal setup for BACCH, and listeners with better speakers with better room placement and room treatment will have a greater cross-talk cancellation effect. However, even a sub-optimal setup delivers huge improvements in spatial resolution and clarity, an order of magnitude greater than that promised by 'high-end' DACs. I also wonder if room correction is an underestimated important factor in helping deliver this spatial clarity. The Phantom Golds do not have this whereas the Lyngdorf 3400 has RoomPerfect correction that works with the speakers and subs. Finally there is probably quite significant variability between listeners for ability to resolve sound spatially so this technology may work really well for some, while not at all for others. With me, it takes a bit of time to start perceiving the improved spatial clarity that the filter delivers.
 

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Hipper

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……..He then clicks on a button that starts the measurement process, which sends, sequentially, an exponential sine sweep (from 20 Hz to 20 kHz) from each of the two loudspeakers.

Is the whole frequency range required for XTC or could it be, for example, just those above the transition frequency of the room (200Hz or so perhaps)? What would happen if below 200hz was not included?
 

onion

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I don't think it matters with lower frequencies anyway as the human ear struggles to localise sound the lower you go.

One of my friends briefly tried the system recently. He must have much better hearing than me as he was able to find the listening sweet-spot just by moving while listening to music. He reported the sensation, when away from the sweet-spot, of wanting to move until he got into the correct position. He was blown away by it.

I do think there are significant variations between humans in terms of ability to resolve sound spatially so YMMV with BACCH.

Orbital - The Orange Album - Remind: part of the instruments are behind me. The experience is wonderful - that weird spatial mix fits that style of music very well.
 
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Theoretica Appl. Physics

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Is the whole frequency range required for XTC or could it be, for example, just those above the transition frequency of the room (200Hz or so perhaps)? What would happen if below 200hz was not included?

Since both ILD and ITD cues become useless for sound localization at low enough frequency (80-90 Hz) BACCH's default low frequency bypass for XTC is 94 Hz. It was thought that XTC has no benefits above 6 kHz, because slight head movements (on the order of the wavelength) from the sweet spot would cause the XTC filter to become mismatched. However, with BACCH-dSP's head tracking this is no longer the case, and BACCH XTC is applied up to the Nyquist frequency, especially since the BACCH's filter response is flat and therefore there is no penalty for doing so.

The effectiveness of sound localization through BACCH well above 6 kHz and the ineffectiveness of localization below 90 Hz can be easily verified with the BACCH-dSP application for the Mac using its built-in test signal generator and band-pass filtering.

Buddy @ Theoretica
 
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@GoosbumpsRbacch
@onion
@Theoretica Appl. Physics
I do have few questions and would like to hear from real customers who tried the BACCH4MAC. Pro reviewers and affiliated experts are welcome but please identify yourself by saying if you are a regular user or pro reviewer.

I am interested in the software but still can not finalize my decision, please help me by answering the following:
  1. If the software will cancel the internal crosstalk, would this make my speakers sound like a pair of headphones?
  2. Will this software change the sound signature of my speakers?
  3. I will use it with 2.2 channels, is there any issue here?
  4. What about the music tracks, do I need binaural records to enjoy the full effect of the software? If I ask you to tell me the percentage of tracks on Tidal that will benefit from the BACCH, what would be this percentage?
  5. In real life and real performance, we don't hear the music in 3D and sharp pin-point imaging. How come the BACCH is claimed to be mimicking the real life performance of an orchestra or live Jazz...etc? Why would I spend 5000$ on something that will make my music sound fake?
Thanks in advance for your answers
 
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Dialectic

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@GoosbumpsRbacch
@onion
@Theoretica Appl. Physics
I do have few questions and would like to hear from real customers who tried the BACCH4MAC. Pro reviewers and affiliated experts are welcome but please identify yourself by saying if you are a regular user or pro reviewer.
I am interested in the software but a still can not finalize my decision, please help me by answering the following:
  1. If the software will cancel the internal crosstalk, would this make my speakers sound like a pair of headphones?
  2. Will this software change the sound signature of my speakers?
  3. I will use it with 2.2 channels, is there any issue here?
  4. What about the music tracks, do I need binaural records to enjoy the full effect of the software? If I ask you to tell me the percentage of tracks on Tidal that will benefit from the BACCH, what would be this percentage?
  5. In real life and real performance, we don't hear the music in 3D and sharp pin-point imaging. How come the BACCH is claimed to be mimicking the real life performance of an orchestra or live Jazz...etc? Why would I spend 5000$ on something that will make my music sound fake?
Thanks in advance for your answers
1. No, it compensates for HRTF, so, with BACCH, your speakers don't sound like headphones and your headphones don't sound like headphones. Headphones with no processing do not compensate for HRTF.

2. It will make your speakers "image" better. It will not alter their characteristics otherwise.

3. No. BACCH4Mac Pro now includes a built-in digital crossover that is perfect for 2.2 setups.

4. Binaural records give the full 3D experience, but other tracks, especially those recorded in natural acoustic space, sound three dimensional with BACCH. Every stereo recording I have listened to is enhanced by BACCH.

5. It doesn't sound fake, and it doesn't sound like surround sound. When I sit in the best seats in the house at Avery Fisher or the Barbican or the Philharmonie, I can hear where all the instruments in the orchestra are, and I get a huge "soundstage," if you will. I get a similar effect with BACCH.

Once you get it set up, you'll be astounded. BACCH is the single simplest and biggest upgrade one can make to a stereo system.
 
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1. No, it compensates for HRTF, so, with BACCH, your speakers don't sound like headphones and your headphones don't sound like headphones. Headphones with no processing do not compensate for HRTF.

2. It will make your speakers "image" better. It will not alter their characteristics otherwise.

3. No. BACCH4Mac Pro now includes a built-in digital crossover that is perfect for 2.2 setups.

4. Binaural records give the full 3D experience, but other tracks, especially those recorded in natural acoustic space, sound three dimensional with BACCH. Every stereo recording I have listened to is enhanced by BACCH.

5. It doesn't sound fake, and it doesn't sound like surround sound. When I sit in the best seats in the house at Avery Fisher or the Barbican or the Philharmonie, I can hear where all the instruments in the orchestra are, and I get a huge "soundstage," if you will. I get a similar effect with BACCH.

Once you get it set up, you'll be astounded. BACCH is the single simplest and biggest upgrade one can make to a stereo system.

How it is compared to the new top of the line Polk Audio speakers that have the crosstalk cancelation feature?
 

onion

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I would estimate that 90-95% of music I hear through Qobuz is significantly improved by BACCH. I suspect there is something psychoacoustic going on here - BACCH places individual sounds in a 3d space similar to real life. Normal stereo playback is from a 2d plane where the speakers are located - the brain may be trying to resolve what it hears from that 2d plane into a 3-d sound field and that is what causes listening fatigue.

So while BACCH does recreate the soundstage for actual acoustic recordings, it has a benefit for most other non-acoustic recordings where the sound engineer/ producer has not deliberately placed individual sounds in a 3d soundfield (as they are not listening to the tracks with IXTC deployed). This is true even though it may be an artificial soundstage.
 

Dialectic

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How it is compared to the new top of the line Polk Audio speakers that have the crosstalk cancelation feature?
The BACCH algorithm is vastly more sophisticated than older analog solutions such as the one employed in the Polk loudspeaker and the Carver Sonic Holography circuit.

You might search posts by member @Scott Borduin, who had a longstanding interest in crosstalk cancellation before he purchased BACCH and had back-and-forth on this forum with Prof. Choueiri and others on different crosstalk cancellation methods.

I note that Mr. Borduin had concerns about bass quality with BACCH, and I formerly had concerns about the tonality of instruments in the middle of the soundfield (e.g., the piano, when you're listening to a piano concerto). Since those posts, BACCH has added a bass correction algorithm that, at least in my system, has resolved those issues.
 
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onion

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Here's a question. I'm refurbishing a room which will be used for music listening with BACCH. What would be the best way to treat the walls, ceiling and floor? Current speakers are Devialet Phantom Golds.
 
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