BACCH4Mac Pro Edition - For those considering BACCH

[onion]

Not sure GrimSurfer knows what he's on about here mostly. A simple search of cross-talk cancellation on any of the main search engines yields the top results as relating to audio signal processing. It's a term commonly used to denote this meaning in this context rather than the electronic science meaning.

Put simply, the goal of crosstalk cancellation is, given a listener and a couple of loudspeakers, to deliver an audio signal from the right speaker to the right ear and from the left speaker to the left ear while eliminating the crosstalk (ie preventing right speaker audio signal reaching left ear and vice versa)

Anyway, I have BACCH4Mac. It did not perform that great in my movie room, but that has in-wall speakers (behind the projector screen) and poor room treatment. I will try it with my Devialet phantom golds in the front room. The OP comments are much appreciated on directive speakers and reflections etc.

And yes the team at Princeton are absolutely stellar in their customer service.

 

[PierreV]

A lot of words here but Chouieri is a smart guy and one should read what he writes about BACCH rather than the words of a proselyte.

I've stumbled upon his stuff in the past when I was looking for technical information for speakers. I have read a few things here and there and have some ambisonics experience in VR and gaming (Audeze Mobius) spooky and/or spectacular - I am sure there is a lot of value in there. I guess home theater sound could (does?) benefit as well.

What I am not sure about is the value it would add to my stereo experience or if the issue(s) it claims to address in that scenario is(are) critical. Even the most flowery soundstage descriptions in high-end subjective reviews have left me cold: when I listen to natural recordings where I have a reference (video or performance), the instruments/performers are where they should and sound mostly as they should. Not sure I want them to crawl up the wall or jump at me from 90°.

I guess soundfields are a matter of taste though: I have listened to David Gilmour's Live at Pompei a few times in my home theater and, while I found it to be a nice experience, I found the spatial distribution to be exaggerated at times: it felt as if I was on stage (spectacular) but looking towards the band (disorienting: if I was on stage and a band mate was playing to my left I would not expect to hear him 90°s to my right). The wow factor is certainly there, but there is a disconnect with the visual experience.

disclaimer 1: my 5.2 setup may be suboptimal.
disclaimer 2: it could be that golden ears find "Live at Pompei" to be a poor recording, I wouldn't be able to comment on that.

 

[GrimSurfer]

Well with the tone of this thread I would not expect Choueiri to chime in.

@GrimSurfer your not doing anybody any favours with your tone here and indeed elsewhere. We are all here for friendly and informative chat. It's not for you to be lecturing anybody on forum requirements, you have zero authority here to aggressively chastise folks in the way you have.

You need to perform a about turn.

The aim of most forums on this site is to advance the science of sound. It is not to act as a marketing forum for cheap and clumsy salesmanship. An area called Desperate Dealers Forum provides a safe space for manufacturers of all stripes to promote their wares.

As a moderator, you will of course recognize the reasons for these clear divisions in online activity.

The ideal site is one where members play by the rules and self regulate. While I can almost understand the reasons for being singled out here, I'm at a loss to understand why you didn't intervene in what is clearly schilling and Astro Turfing.

So I will take a voluntary vacation while you figure out how to deal with the broader problem of how to regulate really desperate dealers from using this site as a telemarketing channel. I wish you luck in doing this smartly because such activities can adversely affect the reputation of the brand that Amir (and others) has worked so hard to achieve.

In the meantime, you may wish to reflect on which is the greater transgression: an individual member calling out, or those engaged in, the distasteful practice of Astro Turfing.

See you in a month... or maybe not.

 

[Thomas savage]

The aim of most forums on this site is to advance the science of sound. It is not to act as a marketing forum for cheap and clumsy salesmanship. An area called Desperate Dealers Forum provides a safe space for manufacturers of all stripes to promote their wares.

As a moderator, you will of course recognize the reasons for these clear divisions in online activity.

The ideal site is one where members play by the rules and self regulate. While I can almost understand the reasons for being singled out here, I'm at a loss to understand why you didn't intervene in what is clearly schilling and Astro Turfing.

So I will take a voluntary vacation while you figure out how to deal with the broader problem of how to regulate really desperate dealers from using this site as a telemarketing channel. I wish you luck in doing this smartly because such activities can adversely affect the reputation of the brand that Amir (and others) has worked so hard to achieve.

In the meantime, you may wish to reflect on which is the greater transgression: an individual member calling out, or those engaged in, the distasteful practice of Astro Turfing.

See you in a month... or maybe not.

Oh your attitude and rude aggressive manor is waaaay more damaging to us than the odd thread enthusiastically endorsing something. I'm not sure anyone's really shilling here but certainly the threads a bit of a loss regardless, thanks to you.

Though I appreciate you obvious concern I see no significant issues at ASR regarding shilling in threads , we are in no danger of becoming a telemarketing channel either. The op is a little ' marketing ' sounding but it represented a opportunity to discuss what's is a fascinating system.

The only Brand damage being inflicted here is by way of your attitude. You can amend that or just keep on walking.

@GoosbumpsRbacch hi , if you do indeed have any commercial interests regarding this system please declare it and I will move this thread to the dealer area . If not then I apologise for the treatment you have received here, actually regardless I offer my apologies to you.

 

[GrimSurfer]

I will walk off into the sunset Sheriff, thank you very much. To me, it's a question of ethics -- as it should be to those who simply come here to sell stuff in a less than upfront manner (and apparently getting an apology from the local constabulary for doing so).

So you see, Sheriff, the issue isn't manners. It's more fundamental than that. It's ethics.

Rather like the LE official who takes his/her time responding to a break and enter, then charging a resident for taking the law into their own hands. (Reminiscent of the thread in which a member left after responding to some rather unseemly baiting https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...rguments-about-hypex-and-nord-licensing.7783/ ).

I offer my most sincere thanks to @amirm , @Blumlein 88 , @RayDunzl, @March Audio, @PierreV, @oivavoi, @svart-hvitt, @tktran303, @Soniclife and many others whose high quality, technically-inclined posts added to the understanding of sound.

I am also grateful to @Kal Rubinson , @cosmic , @Sal1950 , @LTig and others for their audio views -- even when these challenged my own preferences, perceptions, and views.

Cheers mates!

 

[Purité Audio]

The Bacch system isn’t ‘shit’ or foo, Daniel Weiss has licensed a version ( I believe) from Bacch for his ‘livebox’ speaker, I would very much like to try it here.
Keith

 

[Krunok]

Maybe it is the time to point out that no one has criticized BACCH at this point. Many people here are aware of the benefits of DSP and advances in soundfield processing. But the initial message was essentially pure subjective marketing. After reading it, I know very little about what BACCH does or claims to do. Contrast that with some of the amplifiers discussions here where the designer discussed its choices.

Some feedback maybe?



Sounds like marketing.



Subjective. Still sounds like marketing.



Archetypal subjective.



Buzzwords. No informational content.



Biographical, suitably hagiographic, bad stereophile's style.



Already commented on that, but... anyone who spends significant money on ethernet switches automatically loses credibility afaic.



Opinion, ok everyone is entitled to one. Still not much content. Not sure what a "holographic" soundstage is, not sure it is what I am after but usually can't complain about imaging, at least when I have a visual reference to compare it with. I am subjectively happy about a few of my systems, but would not write longish posts about my subjective experience.



Opinion, still OK, but just opinion.
Should be noted that many tests on this site have conclusively demonstrated that one doesn't need to spend big bucks on exotic systems in many areas.



Subjective comparisons. The argument here seems to be that all systems could benefit - fair enough. In my opinion, and what seems to be the consensus of experts on this board, spending a lot of money on a DAC and on cable can't be rationally justified.

From that it follows that, even if the DSP has an impact, the level of trust we can put in the ears of people who buy expensive cables is low. Relying on such subjective testers undermines the argument (even if the argument is valid in the absolute sense).



Again, subjective and marketing. Zero useful information.



Same as above, "expensive server"...



More marketing without substance.



Analysis???



Sigh...



Extraordinary claims require....



Yeah, let's drop numbers and trust our ears... Not exactly the mantra of this site.



Is that an argument?



More marketing. This isn't merely a foot tapping inducer, but an addictive experience.



ROTFL...




Some would argue it mostly demonstrates the profile of the customer and the type of marketing he is vulnerable to...



Ah, cables...



Depends. The word filter might evoke an audibly transparent process for others. Some even understand filtering is mandatory. But let's not digress...

Again, let me be clear, what BACCH is doing might be equivalent to the second coming of Christ, I have no opinion. But that post tells me next to nothing on what it does, how it does it and doesn't offer an ounce of what we call "evidence"...

And to anyone who feels the urge to be rude to me, help yourself. I don't mind and won't retaliate.

I agree that article is a bit on the marketing&cheering side but on the other hand how do you evaluate proprietary sound processing system? You can't really measure it so you are pretty much left only with subjective impressions.

The interesting part, at least to me, is that they claim their technology is about crosstalk cancelation.

Quote from their FAQ:

"BACCH® 3D Sound relies on canceling an undesired artifact, called crosstalk, that occurs whenever stereo sound is played through loudspeakers, thus allowing the 3D cues which the brain needs to hear in 3D, and which exist in abundance in practically all well-made stereo recordings, to naturally reach the brain of the listener.

If, for instance, in the original sound field a fly cicrles the head of the ideal listener during the recording, a listener of that recording played back through the two loudspeakers of a BACCH® 3D Sound system will hear, simply and naturally, the same fly circling his or her own head. If, in contrast, the same recording is played through standard stereo or surround sound systems the fly will be perceived to be inside the loudspeakers or, through the artifice of the phantom image, in the limited vertical plane between the loudspeakers."

So, what are your thoughts, is this a major brakethrough in virtual 3D technology or another "too good to be true"thing ..?

 

[Thomas savage]

The effect is sensational, wether one likes it or not is another matter.

If you live with a small listening space and like some late night headphone listening, maybe due to having neighbors near then it's definitely worth trying imo. It has a amazing effect over both headphones and speakers .

Iv no experience with it with large speakers in a good size room , it may or may not be so important in that scenario.

If I had £5000+ to spend on a hifi I'd buy this system and spend the rest on suitable electronics.

I do tend to wonder though if something like this could be bundled with a Xbox and at a much much lower cost. Right now that's no happening, maybe one day.

When I tried it through speakers I found it kept the tonal balance correct but I didn't always like where it put individual instruments in the soundstage. With a pair of relatively cheap open back headphones it was simply amazing.

I can't understand the negativity towards it tbh.

The Bacch system isn’t ‘shit’ or foo, Daniel Weiss has licensed a version ( I believe) from Bacch for his ‘livebox’ speaker, I would very much like to try it here.
Keith

That a interesting development, I look forward to hearing what you think if you get your hands on this.

 

[Krunok]

The effect is sensational, wether one likes it or not is another matter.

If you live with a small listening space and like some late night headphone listening, maybe due to having neighbors near then it's definitely worth trying imo. It has a amazing effect over both headphones and speakers .

So you tried it? Nice..

I find it impossible to say anything about such system without giving it a listen first.

Here I must admit I'm a little bit sceptical about the "circling fly" thing as I don't think that information is present in the stereo recording at the first place, so I'm guessing that is a marketing thing. On the other hand you seem to be genuinely impressed by the system. Did you have a chance to listen it with the music you know or it was some kind of demo?

 

[Thomas savage]

So you tried it? Nice..

I find it impossible to say anything about such system without giving it a listen first.

Here I must admit I'm a little bit sceptical about the "circling fly" thing as I don't think that information is present in the stereo recording at the first place, so I'm guessing that is a marketing thing. On the other hand you seem to be genuinely impressed by the system. Did you have a chance to listen it with the music you know or it was some kind of demo?

There was a mix of music , some I was familiar with.

The only negative was a jazz track where one of the musicians seemed to be playing from the loos in the vanguard rather than on stage with the other dudes lol

If you get the chance to try it bite their hand off and go listen. The software is powerful and if one wants to get involved with it I believe you can do quite a bit.

I was at @Dialectic gaff last year and thats who showed me it.

 

[PierreV]

The effect is sensational, wether one likes it or not is another matter.
If you live with a small listening space and like some late night headphone listening, maybe due to having neighbors near then it's definitely worth trying imo. It has a amazing effect over both headphones and speakers .

Have you tried waves nx?

https://www.waves.com/nx
https://www.audeze.com/products/mobius-series/mobius-headphone

Just curious. It seems somewhat similar, minus the speaker claims.

Yes, the effects are spectacular, but not really "hi-fi" for my taste?

 

[Thomas savage]

Have you tried waves nx?

https://www.waves.com/nx
https://www.audeze.com/products/mobius-series/mobius-headphone

Just curious. It seems somewhat similar, minus the speaker claims.

Yes, the effects are spectacular, but not really "hi-fi" for my taste?

No iv not tried that.

Nothing about the BACCH system I tried was anti hifi to me but I can see why some might think it could be.

 

[Krunok]

The only negative was a jazz track where one of the musicians seemed to be playing from the loos in the vanguard rather than on stage with the other dudes lol

Interesting feature.. In that case there is always a chance that the software accidentally takes away Diana Krall from the stage and puts her in your lap.

 

[Thomas savage]

Can we stick to the topic here , BACCH or similar systems.

Thanks .

 

[Thomas savage]

Interesting feature.. In that case there is always a chance that the software accidentally takes away Diana Krall from the stage and puts her in your lap.

Anything that keeps her from the recording studio is a plus in my book .

 

[Dialectic]

Here I must admit I'm a little bit sceptical about the "circling fly" thing as I don't think that information is present in the stereo recording at the first place, so I'm guessing that is a marketing thing.

In my experience, the circling fly demo works only if the recording was made with binaural microphones (i.e., using a dummy head) and the accompanying system is set up optimally, with appropriately directive speakers and room treatment. I heard a similar demo that was utterly startling with the BACCH SP and Sanders loudspeakers in Hong Kong in 2015.

The circling fly demo does not completely work in my system because my room is admittedly suboptimal. We'll see if it works when we get into a house and I get some room treatments.

 

[Dialectic]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astroturfing

It would be good to get clarification from @GoosbumpsRbacch on his industry affiliations, if any. From the style of the posts above, I very much doubt that @GoosbumpsRbacch has anything to do with Theoretica Applied Physics or the 3D3A lab.

 

[badboygolf16v]

Is this similar to Ambiophonics?

 

[Dialectic]

Is this similar to Ambiophonics?

Argh, please see the thread above. Yes but significantly more advanced.

 

[Krunok]

Nothing about the BACCH system I tried was anti hifi to me but I can see why some might think it could be.

Well, purists will always say that anything that changes original signal is not HiFi but I'm pretty sure this software doesn't introduce any distortions nor it changes FR. My guess would be that it changes only the phase of some parts of the signal.