B&W Nautilus 804 or Opera Quinta? Harsh or warm? Tame or change..?

[Arc78]

Hi,
I hope I post this right. I don't know if anyone has an idea about this. It s might be a large post just skip through the background parts, but I would be grateful for some ideas.

Why the 804N in the first place?
I have had a lot of B&W speakers through the years. One reason for this is that I once bought the DM 601 original version and they still sounds beautiful (use It almost every day for 20 years with my Onix amp). You won't get fatigue not after 6 hours of music. I also have a full CM setup 7.4.4 in my living room still a very good speaker but here they start to get trickier as we all know. I am not unhappy with the CM but they can get sharp if not handled correctly with subs room treatment and good electronics specially at higher levels they can get fatiguing.

Well I planned to setup a listening room with a projector and 5.1 capabilities at our holiday home.
I found an ad for this 804N in close to perfect condition with the center. I tried it at home today with a NAD C725 BEE 2 channel stereo to start with (found out that my large power amp not was working order).
They sound impressive, clear, very detailed and the soundstage is extremely large. They are however very weak in bass and not at all warm like 601 rather little clinical. I expected them to be weak in bass most modern B&W are. The thing is that they are more like a large stand mount speaker or 2-way monitor. Compared to CM10s2 with sub they are more clear but also quite a lot more treble intense.

Why is 804 is so in the face? How should I think here. Is it because of the lifted tweeter?
Even with the bass boosted with EQ on source and on the receiver the bass screw at 75% and treble lowered 25% they are still very much up in the face, not directly harsh but it feels like they have focused all energy on the treble and little bit of the higher mid rest is another story. Not for relaxed listening and not for fun playing but very crisp and enormous detail. I would not say that they are incorrect just the lower part is missing and quite high up. Rest is very reviling but also very powerful.

I now have a feeling B&W started to go treble intense already in the nautilus series today it's even worse I think. That was little of a surprise to me I hoped it still was more like 601 or other older series.
I understand that I can combine it with a great sub to get the bass frequencies missing and set it to go high but still it's very intense speaker I would say.

I got a bit surprised
I haven't found so many informative reviews of 804N maybe cause its quite old I guess but of course it was a bit of dream for all of us young at the time and fan of B&W so I bought it rather unheard now when I saw the chance.
I had listened to it back then but only in shop of course and it has a wow factor and it still has its not a bad speaker, its impressive but still lacks a lot of punch yes even less than 602 683 and CM10 which I find rather strange for a large three-way speaker and with that very strong high-res treble horn its not so relaxing. It's not a speaker where you krank up the volume play Paint it, Black! and grab a beer. You sure not miss the music but not really relax to it either.

What I should look for
So I was wondering if I rather want something more relaxing yet with resolution but maybe a bit more balanced. I guess it's not hard to sell an 804N and I stumbled over the Opera Quinta they have a reputation of being more warm laid-back but still a large soundstage and good resolution.
I listen to everything from classical to pop and rock metal etc. I want it to both music 90% but also movies. I like resolution but not when it gets clinical and all the warmth disappear.
I can not audition them either, which is the negative part of buy second hand sometimes.

Anyone have a take on this TAME or CHANGE? Should I go for the Opera about same price class or do the complex work of trying to tame the 804N? I seen many do this with all sorts of tube combinations and a lot of very expensive snake oil stuff. I just get a feeling why buy a too sharp treble intense speaker to tame it? It's like to move to a city to try to get rid of the cars.
Should I try to find something else in the same class? Here brands like Sonus Faber and even Wharfedahle quite hard to come by at the second hand market at least any one of their better series. In this country B&W have dominated the hifi scene with Dali and Dynaudio for decades. I would be very grateful for ideas around this.

 

[RandomEar]

This is ASR, so the answer can, of course, only be to look at the measurements first. I couldn't find any for the Nautilus 804N, but for the similar Diamond 804 D4. Those don't look pretty: Overly hot treble, lack of bass and an extremely uneven directivity with an ugly peak at 6.5 kHz. This would be a bad combo with reflective surfaces like tiled floors or large windows. Doesn't mean the Nautilus will measure the same as that Diamond, but if we combine this datapoint with your impressions, these may have been expensive speakers but they don't seem to be well tuned.

The Opera Quinta (SE) look equally bad with a dip in the mid-bass, a butchered crossover and hot treble. I would stay away from them. So you can either go the "tuning" route with your Nautilus, or switch to something with better sound out of the box. I don't know what your source is and which EQ options it offers. But the first thing to check would be to measure the actual in-room response, for example using a UMIK-1 or UMIK-2 plus REW. That's going to be some amount of work, so you will have to decide how much time you want to invest.

If you're looing at different speakers, there's not that many reviews of floorstanders on ASR. But some good picks seem to be the Revel F206 and F228Be as well as the KEF R11 Meta. If you want to buy used, the original non-Meta R11 would probably also be an option. I don't think they perform much worse than the new model. If you need to burn some cash, there's also the Blade Two Meta You can use the Review Index and then click on "Speakers" to check what else has been posted here. There is a search function in the index.

 

[Arc78]

This is ASR, so the answer can, of course, only be to look at the measurements first. I couldn't find any for the Nautilus 804N, but for the similar Diamond 804 D4. Those don't look pretty: Overly hot treble, lack of bass and an extremely uneven directivity with an ugly peak at 6.5 kHz. This would be a bad combo with reflective surfaces like tiled floors or large windows. Doesn't mean the Nautilus will measure the same as that Diamond, but if we combine this datapoint with your impressions, these may have been expensive speakers but they don't seem to be well tuned.

The Opera Quinta (SE) look equally bad with a dip in the mid-bass, a butchered crossover and hot treble. I would stay away from them. So you can either go the "tuning" route with your Nautilus, or switch to something with better sound out of the box. I don't know what your source is and which EQ options it offers. But the first thing to check would be to measure the actual in-room response, for example using a UMIK-1 or UMIK-2 plus REW. That's going to be some amount of work, so you will have to decide how much time you want to invest.

If you're looing at different speakers, there's not that many reviews of floorstanders on ASR. But some good picks seem to be the Revel F206 and F228Be as well as the KEF R11 Meta. If you want to buy used, the original non-Meta R11 would probably also be an option. I don't think they perform much worse than the new model. If you need to burn some cash, there's also the Blade Two Meta You can use the Review Index and then click on "Speakers" to check what else has been posted here. There is a search function in the index.

Thank you for a very interesting response. Well i saw the measurements of 804 D and I have a feeling there are similarities even though I think they got worse.
I am surprised about the opera measurements I thought them to be very high quality speakers with warm sound. They cost about 4500$ new

What more to search for Sonus Faber ? I always liked the three way floor standers for HT but of course if that’s too difficult to find…

 

[Arindal]

I couldn't find any for the Nautilus 804N, but for the similar Diamond 804 D4.

These are not similar by any means. If I am not mistaken, the N models originate from the 1990s as a successor of Matrix series. The ones that I am familiar with, have a rather decent, neutral to slightly warm/downward-tilted tonality, similar to the DM601 from the same decade. While the 804D4 is said to be one of the treble-richest B&W of all. In the 20+ years between these two models, they have changed their ´house curve´ significantly.

But some good picks seem to be the Revel F206 and F228Be as well as the KEF R11 Meta.

Someone who is happy with the sound of a vintage B&W contemplating about buying 804N, most probably will dislike a KEF model offering both an overly narrow treble dispersion and bass/lower-mid-heavy tonality. Revel maybe, but I would not bet on that.

 

[RandomEar]

These are not similar by any means. If I am not mistaken, the N models originate from the 1990s as a successor of Matrix series. The ones that I am familiar with, have a rather decent, neutral to slightly warm/downward-tilted tonality, similar to the DM601 from the same decade. While the 804D4 is said to be one of the treble-richest B&W of all. In the 20+ years between these two models, they have changed their ´house curve´ significantly.

Thanks for the additional info. It's too bad we lack the measurements for these models and have to work based on guesses and extrapolations

Someone who is happy with the sound of a vintage B&W contemplating about buying 804N, most probably will dislike a KEF model offering both an overly narrow treble dispersion and bass/lower-mid-heavy tonality. Revel maybe, but I would not bet on that.

I think you may have misread that part. The OP did buy the 804N and is unhappy with their lack of bass and sharp treble response. Going to a KEF or Revel would definitely be a hard shift, though - I agree.

 

[Arc78]

Thanks for the additional info. It's too bad we lack the measurements for these models and have to work based on guesses and extrapolations


I think you may have misread that part. The OP did buy the 804N and is unhappy with their lack of bass and sharp treble response. Going to a KEF or Revel would definitely be a hard shift, though - I agree.

Well I find this very hard since many years B&W was a brand that you knew what you got and the quality was really good but then they turned more and more away from a flat response and started the treble intense experiment.
I would say that we have a price range of 1500 to 2000$ new or second hand!

We have brands like wharfedale their Evo series.
Dali Oberon never ever tried one of that brand.
Quad Polk focal triangle dynaudio.
All this is like very unheard to me but I guess a flat response is the key for the speaker.

Any more ideas?

 

[Arc78]

Thanks for the additional info. It's too bad we lack the measurements for these models and have to work based on guesses and extrapolations


I think you may have misread that part. The OP did buy the 804N and is unhappy with their lack of bass and sharp treble response. Going to a KEF or Revel would definitely be a hard shift, though - I agree.

I find this very hard I think that nautilus it’s where it all began. Like 4 years after the founder died.
Then they still realised some speakers like 683 that still was more like their old series.
Today B&W have nothing to do with their past it’s a very different kind of speakers that is opposite to what I want. Extremely high treble low bass and and ice cold sound.

 

[DSJR]

*When they were new,* the B&W 601 had a friendly, slightly 'underdamped loudness switch' balance, slightly too full and 'porty' in the mid bass and a slightly splashy/glossy top, this over several demo samples and many many dems with them. It was still a very 'friendly' kind of tone for lower cost systems if a bit less accurate for reproduction of strings and so on, but we sold a good few of them (the subsequent models turned into paint-strippers up top, sadly). Years later, we had a well-loved pair on for a dem (I'd say they were ten years old at this point) and the top had mellowed markedly, the whole speaker now sounding a bit ' chesty BeeBeeCee' in balance I remember. Years on from that, I've no idea how the OPs pair will sound compared to how they were when new.

The slight 'loudness switch balance' of late 80s models seems to have been exaggerated in so many subsequent generations and appearance has also been emphasised. I deeply respect the original 801 and M801 models, the 802 versions sounding slightly 'phat' in the bass I remember while keeping the generally truthful mids and highs, but something went awry I felt when the nautilus range came out, the lower ranges going off on a sonic tangent as well...

I heard a couple of 68* models twenty years or so back. the 601 replacement sounded hollow and 'boxy' to me, making me want to fill the enclosure with something to take the hollow tone on speech out maybe. The floor standers were funky enough, but again, this colouration was still there to me although not so bad as the tone was larger in scale. I wasn'taware of a tweeter issue though, but it was a long time ago and I was visiting a now closed local dealer rather than working with them.

Can you see if the Wharfedale Super Linton can do anything for you? Not sure on their more stylised models however.

Might KEF have something to make a system with? If to be part of a home theatre system, they have matching centres and similar but smaller rears that may fit the bill (do remember that it's bad enough to get a pair of boxers to work in a room, let alone several plus a sub...).

 

[Mort]

Lots of former Nautilus owners here. I loved them.

I love a linear response more now.

 

[Arc78]

How can understand the difference between these brands
Polk
kef
Sonus
Dynaudio
Triangle
Dali
Sonus
opera

Flat response warm high resolution
Which series to look for?
I can’t really feel big difference in my 601 now and 15 years ago or more but since they are connected to my computer and are used frequently show changes I would adopt to of course.
But compared to many others they are not bad at all.

*When they were new,* the B&W 601 had a friendly, slightly 'underdamped loudness switch' balance, slightly too full and 'porty' in the mid bass and a slightly splashy/glossy top, this over several demo samples and many many dems with them. It was still a very 'friendly' kind of tone for lower cost systems if a bit less accurate for reproduction of strings and so on, but we sold a good few of them (the subsequent models turned into paint-strippers up top, sadly). Years later, we had a well-loved pair on for a dem (I'd say they were ten years old at this point) and the top had mellowed markedly, the whole speaker now sounding a bit ' chesty BeeBeeCee' in balance I remember. Years on from that, I've no idea how the OPs pair will sound compared to how they were when new.

The slight 'loudness switch balance' of late 80s models seems to have been exaggerated in so many subsequent generations and appearance has also been emphasised. I deeply respect the original 801 and M801 models, the 802 versions sounding slightly 'phat' in the bass I remember while keeping the generally truthful mids and highs, but something went awry I felt when the nautilus range came out, the lower ranges going off on a sonic tangent as well...

I heard a couple of 68* models twenty years or so back. the 601 replacement sounded hollow and 'boxy' to me, making me want to fill the enclosure with something to take the hollow tone on speech out maybe. The floor standers were funky enough, but again, this colouration was still there to me although not so bad as the tone was larger in scale. I wasn'taware of a tweeter issue though, but it was a long time ago and I was visiting a now closed local dealer rather than working with them.

Can you see if the Wharfedale Super Linton can do anything for you? Not sure on their more stylised models however.

Might KEF have something to make a system with? If to be part of a home theatre system, they have matching centres and similar but smaller rears that may fit the bill (do remember that it's bad enough to get a pair of boxers to work in a room, let alone several plus a sub...).

Are Super Linton better than EVO if I want a HT setup? there are others that more are like a complete set?

 

[Arc78]

Lots of former Nautilus owners here. I loved them.

I love a linear response more now.

OK so you mean that they are not so linear but more like its own curve where music sounds different? I like them and dislike them in a way. Like I said they have certain things that are truly amazing and music sounds different. However I do have a feeling it's a bit different from what it was supposed to sound and what happened to lower mid and bass. Any ideas where to start looking for a speaker that are more complete and linear?

 

[Arc78]

These are not similar by any means. If I am not mistaken, the N models originate from the 1990s as a successor of Matrix series. The ones that I am familiar with, have a rather decent, neutral to slightly warm/downward-tilted tonality, similar to the DM601 from the same decade. While the 804D4 is said to be one of the treble-richest B&W of all. In the 20+ years between these two models, they have changed their ´house curve´ significantly.



Someone who is happy with the sound of a vintage B&W contemplating about buying 804N, most probably will dislike a KEF model offering both an overly narrow treble dispersion and bass/lower-mid-heavy tonality. Revel maybe, but I would not bet on that.

Well overly narrow treble dispersion I am not sure is that good? Can you help me sorting out different brands available here in north Europe Scandinavia and what I could start look for.
This are a few of the brands seems to available here:
Polk
Sonus
Dynaudio
Triangle
Dali
Sonus
Opera
its a smaller living room but you sit around 2 - 2,5m from the fronts anyway... of course I could go standmounts but I always like the three way idea where you have woofers. I would say the 804N is not a true three way design since the lower end is so absent.
Can you tell me anything about them like warm /analytic soundstage bass

 

[Mort]

OK so you mean that they are not so linear but more like its own curve where music sounds different? I like them and dislike them in a way. Like I said they have certain things that are truly amazing and music sounds different. However I do have a feeling it's a bit different from what it was supposed to sound and what happened to lower mid and bass. Any ideas where to start looking for a speaker that are more complete and linear?

Yes exactly. It did take a little adjustment on beginning because I was so used to the Nautilus sound.

You are in the right place. The good news is you already have the budget! Commonly advocated passive brands include KEF, Arendal, Ascend Acoustics, Philharmonic Audio, Revel and Mofi. There are others as well.

 

[DSJR]

How can understand the difference between these brands
Polk
kef
Sonus
Dynaudio
Triangle
Dali
Sonus
opera

Flat response warm high resolution
Which series to look for?
I can’t really feel big difference in my 601 now and 15 years ago or more but since they are connected to my computer and are used frequently show changes I would adopt to of course.
But compared to many others they are not bad at all.

Are Super Linton better than EVO if I want a HT setup? there are others that more are like a complete set?

For a complete setup with several speakers together and hopefully matching as much as possible, that's why I mentioned KEF as a possibility...

 

[Arc78]

Yes exactly. It did take a little adjustment on beginning because I was so used to the Nautilus sound.

You are in the right place. The good news is you already have the budget! Commonly advocated passive brands include KEF, Arendal, Ascend Acoustics, Philharmonic Audio, Revel and Mofi. There are others as well.

Well the Arendal I think is way out of my budget of max 2000$ for the fronts the rest I have only heard about Revel and KEF... to find anything of the rest second hand is like zero to no chance... but what about the other brands that actually are possible to find? The Philharmonic Audio is also twice the budget... It has to be possible to find something more normal in money.... and preferable the more well known brands that are on the broader market. They can't all be built to produce a very special unique brand sound?

 

[Arindal]

Well overly narrow treble dispersion I am not sure is that good?

Narrow treble dispersion is in general not a bad thing, but if combined with broad or even omnidirectional midrange dispersion, it might create an imbalance in the room, dull and lower midrange-heavy, opposite to the ´harsh, metallic´ tonality lots of people attribute to some (newer) B&W models.

I am not familiar with this particular model, but as, mentioned, this generation in general is not known for ´hot treble´ (like D3 and D4), I would describe 801 and 805 of this generation as rather pleasing, transparent. So if you experience lack of bass and overexaggerated treble with 804N, it is pretty likely that this is not necessarily an on-axis phenomenon, but rather has to do with the acoustics of your room and the broad dispersion of the tweeter´s lower band (due to baffle-less tweeter arrangement). Because of the latter, a lot of B&W speakers are known for being pretty sensitive to room acoustics and in general work better in well-treated, if not overdamped rooms, like studios.

If you say you sit 2 or 2.5m from the speakers, there might also be some bass cancellation issue or minimum of a room resonance at play.

Hence my recommendation to first do a measurement in the room or try to find out what is causing the phenomena described, instead of buying a speaker, potentially bringing the opposite shortcoming. No matter the recommendation for a particular brand or model, I would strongly advise to do a listening test in your room prior to buying it.

 

[Mort]

Well the Arendal I think is way out of my budget of max 2000$ for the fronts the rest I have only heard about Revel and KEF... to find anything of the rest second hand is like zero to no chance... but what about the other brands that actually are possible to find? The Philharmonic Audio is also twice the budget... It has to be possible to find something more normal in money.... and preferable the more well known brands that are on the broader market. They can't all be built to produce a very special unique brand sound?

Ah, I thought you were comparing to a pair of 704s new? Like $4000 or so?

If the Front budget is $2K, do you have a subwoofer? KEFs will probably have the most options at that level although the philharmonic audio bmr monitor is spectacular at that price point.

Is this music or movies? What kind of music? How loud?

 

[Arc78]

For a complete setup with several speakers together and hopefully matching as much as possible, that's why I mentioned KEF as a possibility...

I heard a lot about KEF they are a very different speaker I guess, the are very unique as well with there special tweeter... How they compare to Wharfedale or Dynaudio or Sonus?
They all have rather complete sets also these and Polk audio have complete sets and are possible to find easy...
These KEF how it works with their treble? "KEF model offering both an overly narrow treble dispersion" like Arindal wrote? Are KEF warm with good bass? I have no experience with them Kef Q7 Meta is as high as I can reach new with my budget... finding bigger KEF secondhand is not very common here but they exist of course KEF XQ40 I found and KEF r500 on the market right now but to know what to search for and to find a reasonable pair is like I not know where to start looking for?! I guess I need some more experience with this brand...

 

[Arc78]

Ah, I thought you were comparing to a pair of 704s new? Like $4000 or so?

If the Front budget is $2K, do you have a subwoofer? KEFs will probably have the most options at that level although the philharmonic audio bmr monitor is spectacular at that price point.

Is this music or movies? What kind of music? How loud?

Loud is not really important here its smaller room around 10 m2
Yes I will use a sub I have quite a few. I am not sure about going to stand mounts for the fronts but I guess they can work, the philharmonic audio bmr monitor is in range yes.
75% music I listen to everything from classic music country metal I like acoustic music a lot. It all depends on the day I guess
You think that others brand is less of quality like Warfedale, Dynaudio or Sonus?

 

[Mort]

Ha No one ever got fired for buying KEFs.

They are neutral, linear and have a nicely focused soundstage. They aren't my all time favorite but they are great, reliable, affordable and available worldwide.

What are you using right now? Original 804s? The q7 would be comparable in bass response.

What kind of content? What AVR?