B&W M1 + / = KEF R3

[vibe]

I have been wanting the KEF R3s for about a year, and they are the first speaker that I heard that really made me take note and hear parts of the music more fully or that I had not heard before. Perhaps a balance of punch and separation.
One other time I experienced that listening to some Magnepan MMG or 1.7 - wowsers!

So, I finally got the KEF R3s on sale, and then ordered a Node N130 and in the process to have something to help hear the vocals when using these for movies with the wife, I also ordered some Bowers & Wilkins M1 without knowing much about them.

I am powering these with Cambridge Audio CX81. Using Amazon HD, though have also switched between that and Qobuz. I also have an SVS SB-1000 subwoofer.

Here's the thing, my wife (and I) can barely tell a significant difference at moderate volumes when switching between these. At higher volumes or more bass-heavy items, I can FEEL the KEFs and can really hear the mid-bass.
I can hear way more high-end detail with the M1s.
When we use both, it is even better.

I'm beginning to think I've lost my mind.

I'm also beginning to think, there must be something out there that would hit the sweet spot of both of these....being the size and form factor of the M1s and full range of sound since I already have the sub.

Thoughts?
Am I crazy?

This is the most informative, scientific, helpful community online. I've read a ton over the past few years and am very appreciative and listen to the Pink Panther theme song a lot more frequently these days.

Appreciatively.
Vibe

 

[zachb]

It’s helpful to try and attribute your different preferences to what can be measured, that way you can avoid the insatiable “grass is always greener” loop. The B&W are probably tuned to have an exaggerated treble (seems to be the signature B&W sound), which gives an increased sense of detail/air and can be preferable on some recordings. The conventional wisdom here is to seek the flattest on-axis response with a smooth power response, so that the speaker isn’t applying a default EQ to every song, and it’s interacting with the room in a consistent way across the audible spectrum. Maybe you’d choose the R3 with a boosted treble for certain genres? I wouldn’t go looking for new speakers thinking you could split the difference.

 

[vibe]

It’s helpful to try and attribute your different preferences to what can be measured, that way you can avoid the insatiable “grass is always greener” loop. The B&W are probably tuned to have an exaggerated treble (seems to be the signature B&W sound), which gives an increased sense of detail/air and can be preferable on some recordings. The conventional wisdom here is to seek the flattest on-axis response with a smooth power response, so that the speaker isn’t applying a default EQ to every song, and it’s interacting with the room in a consistent way across the audible spectrum. Maybe you’d choose the R3 with a boosted treble for certain genres? I wouldn’t go looking for new speakers thinking you could split the difference.

Thank you. Is there a tutorial on doing this that you could point me to?

 

[vibe]

To clarify my ramble.
1) Should I keep both and run a 4.1?
2) Is there something else that would yield a similar or better result?

 

[zachb]

To clarify my ramble.
1) Should I keep both and run a 4.1?
2) Is there something else that would yield a similar or better result?

Get a measurement microphone like an UMIK-1 and REW, measure both and try to quantify what you’re hearing. It could be as simple as tweaking the EQ on one pair for some genres.

 

[Steve Dallas]

If you value accuracy, I would stay with the R3s. While not as wide as some, R3s have excellent directivity control, which means they sound nearly the same across all frequencies as you move off center. They have a nearly ideal frequency response in many rooms--better than most "studio monitors." See my measurements starting with this post:

KEF R3 Speaker Review

Noticed a slight dent in the woofer of one of my R3. In the process of exchanging it. I'm curious about the effect of such dent in sound quality. Any thought? i've heard from someone selling kef r11 with something similar on bass driver, and that guy asked kef, who said that as long it's...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Recent B&W's have what we call at "Batman" frequency response, which looks like our intrepid hero's head and wings. This is also known as "showroom" sound in which highs are artificially boosted to present an illusion of greater detail. It becomes fatiguing to many people after a while. Bass is often boosted create the illusion of lower extension as well. Significant directivity errors are very common with B&W speakers.

See the listening window measurement on this page for an example:

SoundStage! Measurements - B&W CM1 Loudspeakers (5/2007)

BTW, my main speakers were B&W 804n and 805n purchased in 2020 for ~20 years. Around the year 2002 is when B&W abandoned accurate sound, IIRC.

 

[gsp1971]

I can't help with the R3s but I own the M1s as part of a B&W 5.1 home theater system. They are definitely treble-heavy.

Like this:
Red line = on axis response
Brown line = 15o off axis horizontally
Yellow line = 30o off axis horizontally
Green line: -7o vertically
Blue line: + 7o vertically

Looking at the main axis (red), the response is not too bad until about 3kHz, then it drops by 6-7dB at 4-6 kHz, and it climbs about 10dB (!) at 6-10kHz. Clearly the tweeter is a mess.

If you sit lower than tweeter axis (green line) response drops by almost 15dB in the 4-6 kHz region. Ouch!

If you sit higher than tweeter axis (blue line) it gives you the best response but you cannot avoid the increase in the 6-10kHz region.

Long story short, no matter how much you fiddle with placement it is impossible to get close to a flat response.

The report (in Polish, but you can use google translation) is here:

BOWERS & WILKINS MT-60D

Siła systemu MT-60D drzemie tam (albo obudzona stamtąd się wydobywa), gdzie jest naturalne źródło akustycznej mocy - w zakresie niskich ...

audio.com.pl

Hope I could help.

gsp

 

[vibe]

Thank you all for the replies. I have boxed up the M1s and am looking to make the R3s shine.
Any suggestions on amps for the R3s are welcome (in this thread or DM)

 

[Ron Texas]

M1, is that some kind of sports car?