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B&W 805

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#21
There is no accounting for taste. I just gave that list as a starting point. The LS50's (I have them) is there and are relatively cheap. The LS50 is bass shy and some people think they are too bright. They are now widely available from Magnolia. The only other one on the list I have heard is the Dynaudio. It isn't 4 times better than the LS50 and is large for a stand mount. Depending on where you live there is going to be a lot of choices to audition or not much more than Magnolia. Music Direct has a liberal return policy.
which dynaudio? what did you think?
 
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#22
Yes, and on that list is the B&W speaker mentioned here, which has treble 5db elevated above the midrange. I'd imagine a lot of these speakers sound good but Stereophile is not a great resource if you want to get a lot of performance for your money.

The drivers in the SB kit are about as good as it gets, and the design, from what I can glean, integrates the drivers in a way which complements their unique performance characteristics.

Have a look at the Salk BMR Monitor.
have you heard the ara?
 

andreasmaaan

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#23
Actives are in theory good but maybe not in practice. I heard psi audio active monitors that did not sound very nice. My musical taste is mainly modern pop and electronic. The budget could be $6k but I'm slightly dubious about spending so much.
I've never heard or seen measurements of those. Impossible to say what you were hearing. Active monitors don't have a specific sound, it's just easier as a designer to make an active monitor work than a passive speaker, hence my suggestion.

What are some speakers you've heard that you do like?

EDIT: I just had a look at the PSI website and noticed that their speakers are all analogue (no DSP). IMHO that means they are not reaping the full benefits of an active design, but that's just my 2c ;)
 
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617

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#24
One of the members around here who trades a lot told me speakers have very low resale value. Stuff has to have major name recognition like Mac, Audio Research or Levinson.
DIY speakers of any sort are hard to sell, I always seem to forget that since I never sell mine.
 

andreasmaaan

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#26
Is this is on-axis response, you could expect to tame brighness a bit though, by not toeing them and firing straight down the room.
The top graph I posted is the on-axis response, and the bottom graph is the off-axis response, normalised to the response at 0°.

If the graphs are reliable (and they are probably very reliable in the upper frequencies), it appears that the on-axis peak does not really disappear off-axis, so firing them straight is not likely to mitigate the problem much IMHO.
 

daftcombo

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#27
One of the members around here who trades a lot told me speakers have very low resale value. Stuff has to have major name recognition like Mac, Audio Research or Levinson.
It also means that one can get decent speakers second-hand for cheap.
 

Ron Texas

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#28
It also means that one can get decent speakers second-hand for cheap.
Speakers are expensive to ship. If you can't find a pair locally, the risk of getting screwed is high. There are lots of burned out tweeters in this world. On Craigslist in Houston, there is nothing but old crap.
 
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#29
I've never heard or seen measurements of those. Impossible to say what you were hearing. Active monitors don't have a specific sound, it's just easier as a designer to make an active monitor work than a passive speaker, hence my suggestion.

What are some speakers you've heard that you do like?

EDIT: I just had a look at the PSI website and noticed that their speakers are all analogue (no DSP). IMHO that means they are not reaping the full benefits of an active design, but that's just my 2c ;)
Measurements will not tell us much though will they? I went out and heard some amphions based on all the positive reviews and supposed benefits of waveguides. I could easily hear the tweeter separately from the woofer. It was very harsh.

Thats the problem, I cant find anything that does sound good. I seem to prefer a substantial dip from 2khz upwards, although this could simply be that I'm hearing problems in that range that are mitigated by reducing the level in that range.
 
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#30
I feel at that price range floor standing speakers offer better sound. With your musical tastes low bass is important and stand mounts don't have it without adding a sub.
It's funny because my perspective on this is the other way around. Unless you're spending on something >100lb gigantic and difficult to handle like a Revel Salon 2, you're not generally going to get enough low end out of even floor standers. And in general you'll end up with better balanced and sounding low end if you use a pair of subs. This also gives you far more placement flexibility.

So at that point, you might as well give up on getting the extreme low end out of your L/R pair entirely. At least that's how I feel about it, but I'm pretty convinced that you're just about always better off with subs nowadays.
 

andreasmaaan

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#31
Measurements will not tell us much though will they? I went out and heard some amphions based on all the positive reviews and supposed benefits of waveguides. I could easily hear the tweeter separately from the woofer. It was very harsh.
Measurements tell us everything that we can hear. But it's very difficult to measure a speaker accurately and thoroughly, so there are not many reliable measurements available online. Stereophile and Soundstage! do a pretty good job, but neither tells the whole story.

Do you have measurements for the Amphions you heard?
 
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#32
Measurements tell us everything that we can hear. But it's very difficult to measure a speaker accurately and thoroughly, so there are not many reliable measurements available online. Stereophile and Soundstage! do a pretty good job, but neither tells the whole story.

Do you have measurements for the Amphions you heard?
no, why would I? But it uses a waveguide which is supposed to provide superior polar response than a standard tweeter. Thats not what I was hearing.
 

617

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#33
Measurements will not tell us much though will they? I went out and heard some amphions based on all the positive reviews and supposed benefits of waveguides. I could easily hear the tweeter separately from the woofer. It was very harsh.

Thats the problem, I cant find anything that does sound good. I seem to prefer a substantial dip from 2khz upwards, although this could simply be that I'm hearing problems in that range that are mitigated by reducing the level in that range.
That could very well be the case. A lot of speakers, like the B&W you have, exaggerate the treble to make the speaker sound more exciting, or to make the speaker sound more detailed off axis in rooms with lots of upholstery, or to accommodate the diminished hearing of aging audiophiles.

Regarding the 'separateness' of the woofer and tweeter, this is a complex issue, but in general, a 2 way with low order crossovers will gel better than a 2 way with higher slope crossovers. The SB kit is unusually good in this respect, and there are few drivers available right now which allow such a gradual transition between drivers. Another way of helping this is to get a 3 way stand mount like the Salk BMR or something similar.
 

Blumlein 88

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#34
Measurements will not tell us much though will they? I went out and heard some amphions based on all the positive reviews and supposed benefits of waveguides. I could easily hear the tweeter separately from the woofer. It was very harsh.

Thats the problem, I cant find anything that does sound good. I seem to prefer a substantial dip from 2khz upwards, although this could simply be that I'm hearing problems in that range that are mitigated by reducing the level in that range.
Yeah, measurements actually can tell a lot. The 805's are bright and measure it. I wouldn't even need to audition them.

I don't know which Amphions you heard, but measurements of the Argon and Helium indicate issues around the crossover region and not very good off axis response. Which indicates they may be hard to get sounding good. They look to have uneven treble peaks off axis which is going to make the tweeter stick out and bother you most of the time. And vertical off axis is even more ragged. So getting the tweeter balanced is going to be very, very position dependent.
 

617

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#35
no, why would I? But it uses a waveguide which is supposed to provide superior polar response than a standard tweeter. Thats not what I was hearing.
It's good to clarify what a 'superior' polar response is. Generally in a polar response we are looking for two things, smoothness and narrowness. Smooth polar response connotes that there are no big irregularities off axis as drivers with different sizes and radiation patterns transition to one another. The tightness refers to the overall narrowness of the speaker dispersion, and to the frequency to which a narrow dispersion is extended. Making a speaker with tight radiation at 300hz is really difficult. We aim for narrow dispersion because it means less radiation reflecting off of nearby walls, among other reasons. Near wall reflections make a speaker sound less intelligible, but far wall (later) reflections generally make the speaker sound spacious.

The amphions are probably both smooth and narrow. The big revel speakers aren't narrow, but they are very smooth. I think most audiophiles would prefer the sound of the revels, or another well designed 3 way, to most waveguide speakers, which can sound a bit like headphones at a distance. It really is dependent on your room and your taste.
 

andreasmaaan

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#36
no, why would I? But it uses a waveguide which is supposed to provide superior polar response than a standard tweeter. Thats not what I was hearing.
I misunderstood you, I thought you were saying that the Amphions measure well yet sound bad. Just because it has a waveguide is certainly no guarantee that it measures well. Not all waveguides provide superior polar response to direct radiating tweeter, although of course a good one should.
 

LTig

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#38
I had a listen to these since they are supposed to be state of the art but found them too bright and just poor sound overall. What are the best two way monitors currently? How does the Sb acoustics ara compare with these high end standmounts?
I don't know the Sb, but I have not yet heard one of the B&W 800 line (including the 800) which I would prefer over my neutral active studio monitors.
 

LTig

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#39
Actives are in theory good but maybe not in practice. I heard psi audio active monitors that did not sound very nice. My musical taste is mainly modern pop and electronic. The budget could be $6k but I'm slightly dubious about spending so much.
Have a listen to some Genelecs combined with a subwoofer.
 
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