B&W 804 D4 review and measurements by Stereophile

[sarumbear]

Not unfortunate at all when I visited there were B&W 800 speakers left in the corridor and another pair were being used to keep some swing doors open.
Keith

More unfortunate for an “Industry Insider” whom I expected to know how a studio complex works.

I saw some engines laying around the factory floor, I’m sure the cars leave the factory have no engines…

 

[Newman]

And after all that, the B&W 804 D4 measurements are as bad as ever….

 

[mightycicadalord]

I would have a very hard time trusting anything I mixed on speakers with such a response. I don't even care for the super neutral stuff like Genelec and Neumann ( I like my tweets without waveguides), but this is just way all over the place. I would also really hate these speakers, peaking at 4k and again at 10k? Yeah no thank you.

My rig cost about $1000 and I bet it sounds way better than those things.

 

[Cadguy]

I listened to the B&W 803 D4 today with a McIntosh MC152 amp and McIntosh C49 pre in a room that had a lot of wall and corner treatment. I brought my own music. For my taste they do sound quite bright and fatiguing, but I suppose there are some people that like this type of presentation.

 

[Geert]

For my taste they do sound quite bright and fatiguing,

Were they installed according to the guidelines, as mentioned in the Stereophile review:

Listening to the dual-mono pink noise track on the Editor's Choice CD (Stereophile STPH016-2), I noticed too much treble energy. I followed the advice in the manual to toe-in the speakers so that they point at a location just in front of the listening position. This reduced the treble excess sufficiently

 

[Cadguy]

Were they installed according to the guidelines, as mentioned in the Stereophile review:

Yes the toe in was exactly as described above.

 

[Xenomorph]

Interesting discussion. I read a lot of comments about the sound signature of the 804d4.
Then I read some comments praising Vivid Giya G1 and Revel Salon 2.
But lets look at their measurements...
Vivid Giya G1 (93000 USD)

Vivid Audio Giya G1 Spirit loudspeaker Measurements

Sidebar 3: Measurements

www.stereophile.com

A hump of 5db @100hz and a serious 12db roloff in the HF starting @5khz

Revel Salon 2 (22000 USD)

Revel Ultima Salon2 loudspeaker Measurements

Sidebar 3: Measurements My estimate of the Revel Ultima Salon2's voltage sensitivity was 86dB(B)/2.83V/m. This is slightly lower than the specified 86.4dB but within experimental error of that figure. The speaker's impedance (fig.1) drops to between 3 and 5 ohms between 17Hz and 600Hz, but as...

www.stereophile.com

Also a significant hump in the LF, but looks more linear in the mid & HF. Yet the off axis response looks quite bad as well.

Looks like these loudspeakers are not flat at all and also have a signature. How can one criticize B&W for having one?

 

[Ageve]

Also a significant hump in the LF, but looks more linear in the mid & HF. Yet the off axis response looks quite bad as well.

No. The "hump" in the LF is a measurement artifact. It's explained in the review.

Looking through this graph's small ups and downs, the Salon2's response is extraordinarily flat, from the upper bass all the way through its 30kHz upper limit. In fact, the tweeter's output starts to rise just below 30kHz, suggesting that the beryllium dome's primary resonance lies above this frequency. (My measurement microphone is calibrated to only 30kHz.) At lower frequencies, the broad rise in output in the upper bass will be mainly due to the nearfield measurement technique. The speaker's low-frequency response extends almost down to 20Hz. This is a true full-range loudspeaker.

Salon 2 is a great speaker. 804 D4, nope...

 

[Xenomorph]

No. The "hump" in the LF is a measurement artifact. It's explained in the review.

Looking through this graph's small ups and downs, the Salon2's response is extraordinarily flat, from the upper bass all the way through its 30kHz upper limit. In fact, the tweeter's output starts to rise just below 30kHz, suggesting that the beryllium dome's primary resonance lies above this frequency. (My measurement microphone is calibrated to only 30kHz.) At lower frequencies, the broad rise in output in the upper bass will be mainly due to the nearfield measurement technique. The speaker's low-frequency response extends almost down to 20Hz. This is a true full-range loudspeaker.

Salon 2 is a great speaker. 804 D4, nope

 

[Xenomorph]

No. The "hump" in the LF is a measurement artifact. It's explained in the review.

Looking through this graph's small ups and downs, the Salon2's response is extraordinarily flat, from the upper bass all the way through its 30kHz upper limit. In fact, the tweeter's output starts to rise just below 30kHz, suggesting that the beryllium dome's primary resonance lies above this frequency. (My measurement microphone is calibrated to only 30kHz.) At lower frequencies, the broad rise in output in the upper bass will be mainly due to the nearfield measurement technique. The speaker's low-frequency response extends almost down to 20Hz. This is a true full-range loudspeaker.

Salon 2 is a great speaker. 804 D4, nope...

Well, if you put it this black & white, I guess there is little left to argue.
On the other hand, you're not really an authority. Thankfully the Stereophile reviewer in question puts a bit more nuance in his conclusion:
Overall, however, I found the 804 D4's sound seductive. This is a loudspeaker you need to audition.

 

[Geert]

a serious 12db roloff in the HF starting @5khz

The graph shows the frequency response "averaged across 30° horizontal window". This explains the roll off, as the tweeter gets more directional as frequency increases.

 

[Xenomorph]

The graph shows the frequency response "averaged across 30° horizontal window". This explains the roll off, as the tweeter gets more directional as frequency increases.

Yes, I read that. For sure frequency responses for every loudspeaker can be explained as every loudspeaker measures differently in different circumstances.
In the case of the 804D4 however, despite costing a fraction of mentioned loudspeakers, all positive aspects of the measurements and sound quality as mentioned in the Stereophile review are conveniently neglected and the loudspeakers are concidered to be garbage.
Renders are being used to prove the built quality is garbage as well.
Seems like a wild goose chase is going on here. It is difficult for me to take that serious.

 

[kairos]

Interesting discussion. I read a lot of comments about the sound signature of the 804d4.
Then I read some comments praising Vivid Giya G1 and Revel Salon 2.
But lets look at their measurements...
Vivid Giya G1 (93000 USD)

Vivid Audio Giya G1 Spirit loudspeaker Measurements

Sidebar 3: Measurements

www.stereophile.com

A hump of 5db @100hz and a serious 12db roloff in the HF starting @5khz

Revel Salon 2 (22000 USD)

Revel Ultima Salon2 loudspeaker Measurements

Sidebar 3: Measurements My estimate of the Revel Ultima Salon2's voltage sensitivity was 86dB(B)/2.83V/m. This is slightly lower than the specified 86.4dB but within experimental error of that figure. The speaker's impedance (fig.1) drops to between 3 and 5 ohms between 17Hz and 600Hz, but as...

www.stereophile.com

Also a significant hump in the LF, but looks more linear in the mid & HF. Yet the off axis response looks quite bad as well.

Looks like these loudspeakers are not flat at all and also have a signature. How can one criticize B&W for having one?

I own the D4s, upgraded from the D3s about 4-5 months ago.

System:

Furutech, Audioquest and Transparent cabling (I like to mix and match cables from different brands)
Puritan power conditioner/grounding
Melco/Ferrum switch/LPS using fiber optic
Lumin P1 streamer/DAC
Denafrips Terminator 2 DAC/Hermes DDC
Gryphon 300 Diablo

I am 59 and it has been suggested that my hearing is compromised otherwise I would hear the faults the D4 measurements reveal. Leaving aside my hearing, I spent considerable time auditioning speakers at my dealer with the same basic system I have at home (Lumin U1 & P1/Diablo stack but with MSB Discrete DAC and all Audioquest cabling/power conditioning). Speakers demoed were Sonus Faber Olympica Nova III, Sonus Faber Maxima Amator, Totem Metal V2, and QLN Prestige Five. I really liked all the other speakers I auditioned, though I felt the Sonus Fabers were a little sluggish and colored for my tastes, suffice to say they were all very different than the D4s, so I guess I just prefer the B&W house sound. One thing that is very clear to me aside from my personal sonic preferences is that the D4 is a BIG step up from the D3 in just about every category. Bass in particular goes deeper and hits harder yet is more accurate. Also the midrange is so much more open. I heard some complaints about build quality, but I looked over my pair VERY carefully and could not find fault anywhere. The internal build is on another level from the D3s too if you look up the improvements that B&W made.

Although I like coming to this website to review the threads and pick up some pointers on which measurements really matter for gear matching purposes, I must say that the more I learn about measurements, the more I see/hear the gap between what measurements are supposed to tell us, and what in practice a well-measuring speaker or amp or DAC actually sounds like in a real listening environment. As an example, I bought the Topping A90 headphone amp based on its measurements and power output, but in my system driving either my planar or dynamic headphones, the amp is a bit bleached tonally speaking. And yes I am running it balanced i/o via the Terminator with high-rez files, so it is not the DAC since the Termi is notably top-class with respect to tonal density. The upshot is, great SINAD scores don't result NECESSARILY in happy listening. As well, there are other variables to take into account when gear matching such as the listener's hearing abilities, sound signature tastes, preferred music genres, file quality, not to mention the quality of the listener's system.

 

[Ageve]

Well, if you put it this black & white, I guess there is little left to argue.
On the other hand, you're not really an authority. Thankfully the Stereophile reviewer in question puts a bit more nuance in his conclusion:
Overall, however, I found the 804 D4's sound seductive. This is a loudspeaker you need to audition.

I don't claim to be an authority. I just explained the measurements.

B&W Nautilus 801 from 1998 ($11,000) (The peak above 20 kHz is the tweeter breakup, not audible):



804 D4:

 

[Geert]

In the case of the 804D4 however, despite costing a fraction of mentioned loudspeakers, all positive aspects of the measurements and sound quality as mentioned in the Stereophile review are conveniently neglected and the loudspeakers are concidered to be garbage.

ASR doesn't pay much value to subjective opinions, especially when executed without controls.

A speaker that impresses ASR measures likes this:

That's close to textbook perfect. They're about 60% of the price of 804 D4's.

 

[Xenomorph]

ASR doesn't pay much value to subjective opinions, especially when executed without controls.

A speaker that impresses ASR measures likes this:

That's close to textbook perfect. They're about 60% of the price of 804 D4's.

"ASR doesn't pay much value to subjective opinions"
....strange....most comments I have seen are just that...subjective opinions.
Good for you that you have found textbook perfect speakers for 60% of the 804D4!! Considering their perfection and pricepoint, forget about the way to expensive Ultima Salons or the rediculously priced Vivid Giya G1. There is no need for them anymore.

Anyway, you go ahead and measure your loudspeakers all day long. I will go listen to some music on mine.

 

[Geert]

I must say that the more I learn about measurements, the more I see/hear the gap between what measurements are supposed to tell us, and what in practice a well-measuring speaker or amp or DAC actually sounds like in a real listening environment.

Don't mix up the science beyond measurements and perception of sound with your personal preferences.

 

[steve59]

B&W is crying all the way to the bank i'm sure. They have their house sound and a $hitload of music lovers that buy them.

 

[Sancus]

Anyway, you go ahead and measure your loudspeakers all day long. I will go listen to some music on mine.

If you signed up to this forum specifically to obsessively defend one particular model or brand of speaker, you're gonna have a bad time. Just FYI.

 

[steve59]

If you signed up to this forum specifically to obsessively defend one particular model or brand of speaker, you're gonna have a bad time. Just FYI.

unless the brand is revel or genelec