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B&W 800D4 series

MarcT

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Pearljam5000

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Would this be considered as part of the SPL specs?

KEF Reference 3

Maximum output
(peak sound pressure level at 1m with pink noise)113.5 dB
Thats a rare exception
99% of the time when it's a a passive speaker, you don't see any such spec.
Screenshot_20210920-070855.jpg
Screenshot_20210920-071003.jpg
 

MarcT

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Bowers & Wilkins 801 D4 vs 802 D4 courtesy of Fidelity Hamburg:

Whoa. Color me surprised. The 801 seems noticeably superior and not just for bass extension. The 802 just seems "restrained" by comparison. The 801 had better articulation on that bass line, more open and natural sounding cymbals, and the vocals seemed more realistic and clear. Everything just seemed better with 801. Of course, the question is if the two recordings were conducted exactly the same.
 

Art Vandelay

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garbz

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Pretty sure the answer is yes, but have you considered/tried room correction ? If you did, I guess you didn't achieve any satisfying result ? If not, why not ?
I use room correction currently with my 805s. But it's no a silver bullet. There's things you can correct and things you can't. Having speakers too close to the wall in a small room for example, you can correct for peaks and phase change, but you can't boost dips where signals are cancelling from a front wall reflection. The only thing you can do is change the room or look at a speaker with a different design. Likewise for smaller rooms dispersion can start rearing its head a bit. You can correct for that, but only really at one listening location.

I'm an absolute advocate of room correction, but it's always important to remember that there's things it can't do, and overcorrecting at one location causes problems in others, fine if your listening position is a chair, not so fine if its a living room couch.
 

Koeitje

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I use room correction currently with my 805s. But it's no a silver bullet. There's things you can correct and things you can't. Having speakers too close to the wall in a small room for example, you can correct for peaks and phase change, but you can't boost dips where signals are cancelling from a front wall reflection. The only thing you can do is change the room or look at a speaker with a different design. Likewise for smaller rooms dispersion can start rearing its head a bit. You can correct for that, but only really at one listening location.

I'm an absolute advocate of room correction, but it's always important to remember that there's things it can't do, and overcorrecting at one location causes problems in others, fine if your listening position is a chair, not so fine if its a living room couch.
Room correction is also not as good for speakers with bad directivity like the 800 series.
 

ctrl

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15Hz to 28kHz (+/-3dB from reference axis)
Wow o_O
Unfortunately, this is the usual bullshit from the marketing department.

This would mean that f3 is at 15Hz, free field, with [email protected] - as it is said in the specification that the sensitivity of the speaker is [email protected].
Theoretically f3 at 15Hz is possible with a passive speaker and 10'' driver, but not in such a small speaker cabinet with the specified [email protected] sensitivity.

The 801 D4 is also not an 8 ohm speaker, as specified, but since a minimum of 3 ohms is reached, it is no longer even a 4 ohm LS, but a 3 ohm LS.
 

ti33er

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I was under the impression the second bass radial rolls in as the first one tapers off; as so to double the output at the roll off point of the primary driver…lowering the Hz that little bit further?

Looking forwards to some real measurements :)
 
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tecnogadget

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I was under the impression the second bass radial rolls in as the first one tapers off; as so to double the output at the roll off point of the primary driver…lowering the Hz that little bit further?

Looking forwards to some real measurements :)

This is not how loudspeakers work at all...it is clearly stated inn the specs it is a “three-way bass-reflex” speaker, there is a port hidden that acts as bass-reflex, with the solely function of doing what you have described for the “second bass radial”, meaning it has a low tuning frequency to help at the very bottom of the response.

This is the same for a $50 three way bass reflex or a $100.000 one. It is very basic speaker principles.
 

richard12511

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Unfortunately, this is the usual bullshit from the marketing department.

This would mean that f3 is at 15Hz, free field, with [email protected] - as it is said in the specification that the sensitivity of the speaker is [email protected].
Theoretically f3 at 15Hz is possible with a passive speaker and 10'' driver, but not in such a small speaker cabinet with the specified [email protected] sensitivity.

The 801 D4 is also not an 8 ohm speaker, as specified, but since a minimum of 3 ohms is reached, it is no longer even a 4 ohm LS, but a 3 ohm LS.

What is a more true anechoic f3? Can't remember if I heard the 800 or the 802, but for the one I did hear, one of the things that was most impressive was the bass.
 
D

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This is not how loudspeakers work at all...it is clearly stated inn the specs it is a “three-way bass-reflex” speaker, there is a port hidden that acts as bass-reflex, with the solely function of doing what you have described for the “second bass radial”, meaning it has a low tuning frequency to help at the very bottom of the response.

This is the same for a $50 three way bass reflex or a $100.000 one. It is very basic speaker principles.

I have a suspicion that someone from B&W is watching this thread... and maybe s/he is laughing.

Once upon a time, loudspeaker people were waiting for a calm winter night after a snowfall, then they were driving to a fire lookout tower on the top of a hill, and only then someone could measure LF response of a loudspeaker with meaningful precision. These days are long gone. Now well-sized anechoic rooms are in almost every university and even most of the companies, which need to declare dBA noise level of their audio-unrelated products, have one. Moreover, if you understand the theory of kernel-based system identification (in addition to acoustics) well enough, you can estimate IR in ... almost any condition.

I wonder, where is there a point in publishing hard data on $10+K loudspeakers that can be easily disproved?
 

preload

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I have a suspicion that someone from B&W is watching this thread... and maybe s/he is laughing.

I'm laughing, mostly because people are debating the accuracy of the manufacturer-provided frequency response specifications of a loudspeaker, as if they're of any use at all. For starters, did B&W specify the conditions of the measurement? Was it anechoic, quasi-anechoic, or in a listening room? Was it taken on a particular axis? At what distance? If not, why are we even talking about them?
 

ctrl

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What is a more true anechoic f3? ... one of the things that was most impressive was the bass.
Could imagine a f3 (frequency response is -3dB below the average sound pressure level of the loudspeaker) of 22-30 Hz as realistic, depending on whether the [email protected] sensitivity apply.
Some may say that this is hardly any difference to 15Hz, but in this frequency range, a 5 Hz difference in passive speakers is already a world away.


I wonder, where is there a point in publishing hard data on $10+K loudspeakers that can be easily disproved?
A few marketing buzzwords are what such a speaker must offer the consumer. The sensitivity should definitely reach the "magic limit" of 90 dB and at the same time still be able to play so low that even subwoofers can't keep up.
1632161006210.png




....Was it anechoic, quasi-anechoic, or in a listening room? Was it taken on a particular axis? At what distance? If not, why are we even talking about them?

Precisely because there is no binding standard, it should always be pointed out when something sounds too fantastic.

For the 800D3, the manufacturer specified (the specifications look somehow familiar ;)):
1632162005186.png


Independent measurements then confirmed the sensitivity of 90dB (even reported 90.7dB), but for that, the low-frequency capability claims were pure fantasy.
An f3 of about 37Hz and an f6 of 29Hz are galaxies away from the manufacturer's claims of 15Hz.
1632162239198.png


Update: When someone spends $30,000 or more on a speaker, it's probably to give the buyer the feeling that Bon Scott so aptly put it, "But we've got the biggest balls of them all." ;)
 
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Pearljam5000

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Could imagine a f3 (frequency response is -3dB below the average sound pressure level of the loudspeaker) of 22-30 Hz as realistic, depending on whether the [email protected] sensitivity apply.
Some may say that this is hardly any difference to 15Hz, but in this frequency range, a 5 Hz difference in passive speakers is already a world away.



A few marketing buzzwords are what such a speaker must offer the consumer. The sensitivity should definitely reach the "magic limit" of 90 dB and at the same time still be able to play so low that even subwoofers can't keep up.
View attachment 154641





Precisely because there is no binding standard, it should always be pointed out when something sounds too fantastic.

For the 800D3, the manufacturer specified (the specifications look somehow familiar ;)):
View attachment 154655

Independent measurements then confirmed the sensitivity of 90dB (even reported 90.7dB), but for that, the low-frequency capability claims were pure fantasy.
An f3 of about 37Hz and an f6 of 29Hz are galaxies away from the manufacturer's claims of 15Hz.
View attachment 154656

Update: When someone spends $30,000 or more on a speaker, it's probably to give the buyer the feeling that Bon Scott so aptly put it, "But we've got the biggest balls of them all." ;)
There's always someone with bigger balls;)
xvx-1.jpg
 

richard12511

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Could imagine a f3 (frequency response is -3dB below the average sound pressure level of the loudspeaker) of 22-30 Hz as realistic, depending on whether the [email protected] sensitivity apply.
Some may say that this is hardly any difference to 15Hz, but in this frequency range, a 5 Hz difference in passive speakers is already a world away.



A few marketing buzzwords are what such a speaker must offer the consumer. The sensitivity should definitely reach the "magic limit" of 90 dB and at the same time still be able to play so low that even subwoofers can't keep up.
View attachment 154641





Precisely because there is no binding standard, it should always be pointed out when something sounds too fantastic.

For the 800D3, the manufacturer specified (the specifications look somehow familiar ;)):
View attachment 154655

Independent measurements then confirmed the sensitivity of 90dB (even reported 90.7dB), but for that, the low-frequency capability claims were pure fantasy.
An f3 of about 37Hz and an f6 of 29Hz are galaxies away from the manufacturer's claims of 15Hz.
View attachment 154656

Update: When someone spends $30,000 or more on a speaker, it's probably to give the buyer the feeling that Bon Scott so aptly put it, "But we've got the biggest balls of them all." ;)

Hmmm, I can't confidently argue with this data, but logically this f3 seems rather low. The 800D3 has two 10" drivers in a very large cabinet; 37Hz seems like a very strange f3 for a speaker this big. Without data of my own, I can't counter this data, but color me very skeptical. As a comparison, the Revel F208(2x8" drivers) has an f6 of 26Hz.
 

Pearljam5000

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I wonder why at this price point they don't use a full metal cabinet instead of layers of wood and glue(the same question also applies to Focal Utopia)
Screenshot_20210921-001537.jpg
 
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