B&W 800D4 series

[preload]

I get your point that you shouldn't dismiss a speaker just because it doesn't measure 'harmanesque.' I don't necessarily disagree.

It's surely true that being on ASR can reinforce one way of thinking, though I personally have not shied away about mentioning times I've enjoyed speakers that don't measure perfect (the JBL L100 classic is one of my favorites, for instance). Sometimes that's led me to some insights about what kind of deviations from 'perfect' I like (as some here know, I'll take wide directivity, even if somewhat uneven, over 'perfect' narrow directivity any day).

It's good that there are other open-minded, scientific thinkers here. It's not that the Harman research isn't solid, it's just that I notice people (not you) are interpreting it incorrectly.

In any case, I think we need to be pretty realistic about comparisons, and that's why I clarified things like 'timbral neutrality' vs preference. I don't expect small old monitors to best newer floorstanders, and I don't think most people here would either, for various reasons.

Right. It should be painfully obvious to anyone that a $1,000 mid-tier bookshelf isn't going to outperform the flagship $15,000 speakers from the same manufacturer - but it isn't. People who fixate on their overinterpretation of the Harman directivity goals have to accept this ridiculous belief in order remain consistent.

I'd like to highlight the distinction between figuring out "preference" and "what a speaker will sound like" from measurements.

I do think it can be hard to distinguish between which of two speakers someone will prefer just by eyeballing them, unless the differences are dramatic. However I disagree that one can't substantially determine what a speaker "will sound like" from looking at a few key measurements, especially when one is aware of how their own tastes correlate with the data.

Those are two different things. You reference the the famous olive preference paper (part 2), but for the most part all it tries to do is predict preference from measurements -- it says very little about what listeners thought the speakers sounded like from these measurements.

I recognize the difference between preference scores and the bold claim of being able to accurately determine how a speaker will sound by eyeballing measurements.

It is from other research (including but certainly not limited to the oft-ignored part 1), that we know measurements can be largely associated with different aspects of sound quality, and that flattish on-axis and smooth directivity are generally perceived as neutral.

I'm so sorry, but Part 1 absolutely does not establish the ability to eyeball a specific measurement and its perceived sound characteristic. And the paper only just touches on the correlation between the slope of a regression line through the listening window (or sound power) FR chart and perceived timbre as "bright" vs. "neutral." But let's go with that, since you bring up the paper. Do you feel that you have the ability to eyeball an FR chart, eyeball a regression line, and calculate its slope in your head with a level of accuracy necessary to decide if the speaker will sound "bright?"

(BTW, I'm not talking about something obviously wrong with the FR chart, like 2nd order rolloff above 1kHz and making the claim that the speaker will probably sound "dull.")

 

[richard12511]

Today I learned that there is a Revel/B&W dealer within 5 miles of me . They didn't have any of the high end models out for listening, and I got there only 15 minutes before close, so I didn't get a good listen.

I did get to hear the 805D3, and I actually really liked it. We compared it side by side with a Revel F206. The B&W was definitely a little(not a lot) brighter, but I actually enjoyed the treble presentation of the diamond tweeter more than whatever was in the Revel. Maybe the Revel Be tweeters would fare better than the F206?. I actually wouldn't call the 805D3 bright, but more like "sparkly". It had a shimmer that the Revel lacked. I could tell it wasn't as neutral as the Revel, but the extra treble didn't bother me at all. The owner/employee seemed to like the Revel more, but for me it was surprisingly really close. I thought both had different strengths. B&W treble sounded clearer and more sparkly(which I liked). It also threw a more focused center image. The Revel had a better midrange sound, sounded more neutral, and the soundstage was bigger/better. Gun to my head, I probably did like the Revel a bit more, but I wouldn't bet on it. I'd need to listen to many more songs. It was more a case of different than it was better/worse.

Really cool that the 805D4 is getting the curved baffle. That will make it much sexier, as well as being a sonic improvement.

Happy I found a dealer so close, and apparently it's been here for 15 years. (I'm used to traveling 100+ miles to listen to speakers, so this will be really nice if they can bring in some of the higher end models. They do plan to get the D4s in stock. I really want to hear 803/2/1 side by side against the F328Be and Salon2.

I heard the 802D3 many years ago, and I was super impressed. It was my dream speaker back then. I was disappointed when I started learning more about measurements and finding out that it didn't measure "well", at least by Harman standards. My only reference back then was an Infinity Beta20, so over the years I've kinda assumed I loved it so much just because I didn't have a good enough reference back then. Now I'd really like to hear it again. I really did enjoy the diamond tweeter's presentation. I do wonder how different the bookshelfs sound from the big towers, since they do measure different. Anyone own both?

 

[MarcT]

Today I learned that there is a Revel/B&W dealer within 5 miles of me . They didn't have any of the high end models out for listening, and I got there only 15 minutes before close, so I didn't get a good listen.

I did get to hear the 805D3, and I actually really liked it. We compared it side by side with a Revel F206. The B&W was definitely a little(not a lot) brighter, but I actually enjoyed the treble presentation of the diamond tweeter more than whatever was in the Revel. Maybe the Revel Be tweeters would fare better than the F206?. I actually wouldn't call the 805D3 bright, but more like "sparkly". It had a shimmer that the Revel lacked. I could tell it wasn't as neutral as the Revel, but the extra treble didn't bother me at all. The owner/employee seemed to like the Revel more, but for me it was surprisingly really close. I thought both had different strengths. B&W treble sounded clearer and more sparkly(which I liked). It also threw a more focused center image. The Revel had a better midrange sound, sounded more neutral, and the soundstage was bigger/better. Gun to my head, I probably did like the Revel a bit more, but I wouldn't bet on it. I'd need to listen to many more songs. It was more a case of different than it was better/worse.

View attachment 154222

Really cool that the 805D4 is getting the curved baffle. That will make it much sexier, as well as being a sonic improvement.

Happy I found a dealer so close, and apparently it's been here for 15 years. (I'm used to traveling 100+ miles to listen to speakers, so this will be really nice if they can bring in some of the higher end models. They do plan to get the D4s in stock. I really want to hear 803/2/1 side by side against the F328Be and Salon2.

I heard the 802D3 many years ago, and I was super impressed. It was my dream speaker back then. I was disappointed when I started learning more about measurements and finding out that it didn't measure "well", at least by Harman standards. My only reference back then was an Infinity Beta20, so over the years I've kinda assumed I loved it so much just because I didn't have a good enough reference back then. Now I'd really like to hear it again. I really did enjoy the diamond tweeter's presentation. I do wonder how different the bookshelfs sound from the big towers, since they do measure different. Anyone own both?

Can you say where this dealer is? It's really nice but seemingly rare to be able to visit a dealer that has both B&W and Harman speakers so you can compare them side by side!

 

[Senior NEET Engineer]

Did they change the voicing? When I heard B&W in the past, they sounded bright to the point of discomfort. My ears are 30 years old not 50+.

 

[atsmusic]

Did they change the voicing? When I heard B&W in the past, they sounded bright to the point of discomfort. My ears are 30 years old not 50+.

What ones did you listen to?

 

[thewas]

Today I learned that there is a Revel/B&W dealer within 5 miles of me . They didn't have any of the high end models out for listening, and I got there only 15 minutes before close, so I didn't get a good listen.

I did get to hear the 805D3, and I actually really liked it. We compared it side by side with a Revel F206. The B&W was definitely a little(not a lot) brighter, but I actually enjoyed the treble presentation of the diamond tweeter more than whatever was in the Revel. Maybe the Revel Be tweeters would fare better than the F206?. I actually wouldn't call the 805D3 bright, but more like "sparkly". It had a shimmer that the Revel lacked. I could tell it wasn't as neutral as the Revel, but the extra treble didn't bother me at all. The owner/employee seemed to like the Revel more, but for me it was surprisingly really close. I thought both had different strengths. B&W treble sounded clearer and more sparkly(which I liked). It also threw a more focused center image. The Revel had a better midrange sound, sounded more neutral, and the soundstage was bigger/better. Gun to my head, I probably did like the Revel a bit more, but I wouldn't bet on it. I'd need to listen to many more songs. It was more a case of different than it was better/worse.

View attachment 154222

Really cool that the 805D4 is getting the curved baffle. That will make it much sexier, as well as being a sonic improvement.

Happy I found a dealer so close, and apparently it's been here for 15 years. (I'm used to traveling 100+ miles to listen to speakers, so this will be really nice if they can bring in some of the higher end models. They do plan to get the D4s in stock. I really want to hear 803/2/1 side by side against the F328Be and Salon2.

I heard the 802D3 many years ago, and I was super impressed. It was my dream speaker back then. I was disappointed when I started learning more about measurements and finding out that it didn't measure "well", at least by Harman standards. My only reference back then was an Infinity Beta20, so over the years I've kinda assumed I loved it so much just because I didn't have a good enough reference back then. Now I'd really like to hear it again. I really did enjoy the diamond tweeter's presentation. I do wonder how different the bookshelfs sound from the big towers, since they do measure different. Anyone own both?

Thank you for sharing your experience, which actually reminds me of one I also had in the past https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...sary-edition-review.21597/page-23#post-819418

 

[Ageve]

I did get to hear the 805D3

The B&W speakers in your photo look like 705 S2, not 805 D3. Did you compare them as well? I have only listened to 705 S2 at a Hifi store, but didn't like them. Thin and bright sounding with lacking soundstage.

As an old B&W fan, I don't like the development over the last 10-15 years. Now I have Revel F208s in my living room.

 

[lherrm]

But in the auditorium where I heard the 802D3s before bringing them home they sounded *wonderful*.

Shame they didn't suit the room. I have no reason to believe the D4 series would be any different.

Pretty sure the answer is yes, but have you considered/tried room correction ? If you did, I guess you didn't achieve any satisfying result ? If not, why not ?

 

[Senior NEET Engineer]

What ones did you listen to?

Not sure which ones in Magnolia showroom and last gen 800 D3 at audio show.

 

[richard12511]

Can you say where this dealer is? It's really nice but seemingly rare to be able to visit a dealer that has both B&W and Harman speakers so you can compare them side by side!

College Station, TX

 

[MarcT]

College Station, TX

Thanks, so I looked at their product list on their website, and they don't list Revel, but I guess they do have them. I may have to take a road trip down there if they have the models I'd like to hear. It would be great to be able to compare Revel Be tweeters side by side with B&W Diamond tweeters. I really need to know if the unpleasant high frequencies I heard from the B&W D3 at audio shows would be confirmed in a side by side comparison.

 

[preload]

The B&W speakers in your photo look like 705 S2, not 805 D3. Did you compare them as well?

Good pickup. The B&W bookshelf speakers pictured on the stand are definitely not the 805D3, most likely 705 S2 as you say. Perhaps @richard12511 could clarify (also thanks for sharing your listening impressions, very interesting).

 

[preload]

Thanks, so I looked at their product list on their website, and they don't list Revel, but I guess they do have them. I may have to take a road trip down there if they have the models I'd like to hear. It would be great to be able to compare Revel Be tweeters side by side with B&W Diamond tweeters. I really need to know if the unpleasant high frequencies I heard from the B&W D3 at audio shows would be confirmed in a side by side comparison.

I had the Revel m126Be and B&W 805D2 side by side in the same room for a few months. I definitely preferred the Diamond tweeter. I also found the m126Be's to sound a bit rolled off on the highs. Vocals sounded smoother on the Revels, however. I ended up keeping the Revels, thinking their better directivity would make them more amenable to equalization in the horrible room they were in. In the end, I sold the Revels too, and replaced them with the Genelec 8351B w/GLM because I was sick of manually eq'ing.

 

[atsmusic]

Not sure which ones in Magnolia showroom and last gen 800 D3 at audio show.

I listened to the 802 D3s at a dealer and didn't notice any problem in the highs for me. It can for sure depend on what you are listening to as well. A lot of newer recordings have a lot more treble. I was listening to AJA by Steely Dan and sounded fine to me.

 

[MarcT]

I had the Revel m126Be and B&W 805D2 side by side in the same room for a few months. I definitely preferred the Diamond tweeter. I also found the m126Be's to sound a bit rolled off on the highs. Vocals sounded smoother on the Revels, however. I ended up keeping the Revels, thinking their better directivity would make them more amenable to equalization in the horrible room they were in. In the end, I sold the Revels too, and replaced them with the Genelec 8351B w/GLM because I was sick of manually eq'ing.

Somebody about 3 hours driving distance from me in TX has a set of 803 D2 for $6300, somebody about 5 hours away in OKC has a set of 804 D3 for $5500, and somebody two hours away in Dallas has a set of Focal Diva Utopia BE for $5750. All in good condition. I do wish the 804 D3 were a bit larger speaker. And there was a mint used set of Kanta 2 at a dealer in Houston, but I guess somebody snatched them up right away. Decisions, decisions...

 

[napilopez]

I'm so sorry, but Part 1 absolutely does not establish the ability to eyeball a specific measurement and its perceived sound characteristic. And the paper only just touches on the correlation between the slope of a regression line through the listening window (or sound power) FR chart and perceived timbre as "bright" vs. "neutral." But let's go with that, since you bring up the paper. Do you feel that you have the ability to eyeball an FR chart, eyeball a regression line, and calculate its slope in your head with a level of accuracy necessary to decide if the speaker will sound "bright?"

(BTW, I'm not talking about something obviously wrong with the FR chart, like 2nd order rolloff above 1kHz and making the claim that the speaker will probably sound "dull.")

I agree that Part 1 doesn't 'establish' the ability to eyeball a measurement and determine what a speaker will sound like! Mainly pointing out that it does at least associate measurements with tonality and spatial presentation, while part 2 only cares about 'preference.'

I brought it up because you said this:

"People can stare at FR graphs all day and pretend that they have "a gift" and can reliably predict how speakers will sound based on eyeballing them (and btw, these aren't even full spinoramas that you're posting). But the reality is that Harman's own research demonstrates that computerized analysis of a full spin measurements can only explain 74% of the variability in listener preference scores." (Emphasis mine)

And what you said is true, but I also think the 74% figure isn't fully relevant to the question of whether measurements can determine what a speaker 'how speakers will sound.' Only whether they will be preferred (by a large sample of listeners in controlled conditions, of course). E.g. two people can hear the same sets of speakers, describe their sound similarly, and still have a difference of opinion on which is better.

So to be clear, I don't think I can definitively back up the notion that people can significantly figure out what a speaker will sound like based on measurements, but I also don't think you can cite existing research to suggest that we can't.

To this point, speaking anecdotally with all the biases that entails... after 40+ speakers extensively measured and listened to, I generally find it quite easy to associate the measurements with a "what a speaker sounds like" for at least my own listening in my own home. Not perfectly, but to a high enough degree that I feel comfortable predicting sound just looking at extensive measurements, or guesstimating measurements from just listening. I recognize that might not translate as easily to other listeners, but whether because I'm fooling myself or it's the real truth of it, that's been my experience.

On the other hand, and importantly, I do not find it easy to determine which of two speakers I will "prefer" based on measurements. Will I value wide directivity over 'perfectly' neutral tonality? Often yes, but not always. This is in line with what you were saying about the limitations of the predictive model, especially just eyeballing preference.

I don't think we're that different in our opinions overall though. I do often think people here overestimate how pejorative some deviations from flat can be. In reality I think comparisons tend to be much 'fuzzier' than sometimes we in the measurement crowd think and the error bars are large.

 

[Cadguy]

Bowers & Wilkins 801 D4 vs 802 D4 courtesy of Fidelity Hamburg:

 

[atsmusic]

Bowers & Wilkins 801 D4 vs 802 D4 courtesy of Fidelity Hamburg:

I don't speak that language but it's crazy how much bigger the 801s look in comparison. Are we sure those aren't the 803's?

 

[Pearljam5000]

801 D4
Frequency response
15Hz to 28kHz (+/-3dB from reference axis)
Wow

 

[Pearljam5000]

By the way, why are there never any SPL specs of passive speakers?