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B&W 800D4 series

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Speaker measurements can also be misleading, so many variables from the room itself to the actual microphone placement.
Many enthusiasts would glance at the two graphs below and automatically predict that the first speaker has a much more "neutral" and "correct" sound and that the second speaker has a pronounced "artificial" or "colored" top end.

The problem is that it is the same speaker (which I also owned at one time), so which graph tells the "truth" and gives a better indication of how the speaker will sound?





https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=839:nrc-measurements-polk-audio-lsim703-loudspeakers&catid=77:loudspeaker-measurements&Itemid=18

https://www.stereophile.com/content/polk-lsiiim703-loudspeaker-measurements
LOL precisely my point.
 

napilopez

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Speaker measurements can also be misleading, so many variables from the room itself to the actual microphone placement.
Many enthusiasts would glance at the two graphs below and automatically predict that the first speaker has a much more "neutral" and "correct" sound and that the second speaker has a pronounced "artificial" or "colored" top end.

The problem is that it is the same speaker (which I also owned at one time), so which graph tells the "truth" and gives a better indication of how the speaker will sound?





https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=839:nrc-measurements-polk-audio-lsim703-loudspeakers&catid=77:loudspeaker-measurements&Itemid=18

https://www.stereophile.com/content/polk-lsiiim703-loudspeaker-measurements

While I agree single speaker measurements can be misleading sometimes, and you need to take into account some variability between measurement sources, we're also lucky to live in a time when measurement availability and consistency is better now than ever. But sure, I personally don't 100% lock in any measurement until I've seen it from two or three trusted sources because I personally know how many things can go wrong when measuring a speaker. Nonetheless, I do still consider them more reliable on their own than written impressions =]

For the most part the trusted measurement sources are quite consistent with their measurements. This specific comparison is one of the biggest 'differences' I've seen, and yet I still I don't see much of a problem. Yes, it's true that speaker enthusiasts might read these individual measurements differently, but I don't think anyone has suggested there isn't some knowledge/skill needed to interpret the measurements. Plus you only shared the listening windows (measured with different types of averages and methodology, mind you), while the directivity measurements (although presented differently), do suggest the speakers are very similar. Obviously, the more data you have to work with the better.

I would hope many people looking at these measurements would realize this is a speaker with a ring radiator that is extremely sensitive to positioning in the last two octaves. The directivity measurements already show this last octave or two can vary hugely with small angle changes. So that brightness from 8k-20kHz -- a region that doesn't usually have a dramatic effect for most listeners anyway -- is highly position-dependent, which you could glean from both the directivity data and speaker design.

I'd guess for most people it's a mostly neutral-sounding speaker that can sound a little bright in the top octave depending on positioning -- like I found with the similar-measuring Reserve R200 which uses a very similar ring radiator, if not the same one. Hard to tell much more without complete vertical data, but curious what your own impressions were.

Even taking all that into account, the measurements are still very similar, especially once you factor in the limitations of each measurement methodology. The NRC measurements still show some possibility for brightness, just not as much.

LSiM703 stereophile SSN.png


Just to the point on positioning, the slight difference above 8kHz points to model variance or difference in positioning, as I saw when I measured the Polk L200 twice, which also uses a similar ring radiator. The first time I did the on-axis (in white) I did not line up the tweeter perfectly with the mic. The second time (in blue) I did a better job of it.

Polk L200 tries.png


So I suspect that upper octave difference in these two measurements is something similar =]
 
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I think we are making the big mistake of associating and confusing the objective, measurable, and consistent Klippel NFC data with Harman's preference research. The fact that they were among the first to use this set of measurements should not give us the right to call the Spinorama "Harmanesque", it would be like calling the steering wheel of a car "Fordesque". If it wasn't Harman, it could have been anyone else, "Spinorama" is something obvious that science would come to at some point. It is a standard and it is called CEA-2034. This, and any other valid measurement, are currently our most reliable tools.

Nobody is confusing those terms. I think people here are quite aware that the spinorama/CEA-2034 refers to a suite of specific measurements. However, there is a concentrated belief here that: a) it's possible to eyeball these spinorama/CEA-2034 measurements and predict how the loudspeaker will sound and whether they will be preferred, and b) speakers that do not follow the Harman engineering goals around directivity sound like crap.

That the Spinorama explains only 74% of the variability in listener preference tells me absolutely nothing. It does not detract from the scientific rigor and accuracy of the measurements. It only tells us what is obvious, that people are not measuring instruments and that 100% could not distinguish between 2 loudspeakers the best one.

I think you got that backwards, chief. Better read the paper again. The measurements, when subject to computerized analysis, are used to predict listener preferences, and they're "good but not excellent" at doing so. The thought that "eyeballing" a series of spinorama/CEA-2034 to make even more definitive determinations than computerized analysis on a loudspeaker that isn't even part of the validated sample studied, is an exercise in arrogance.

Speaker A measures better than speaker B.
  • Individual X prefers speaker A: This means that he prefers a more linear and faithful reproduction.
  • Individual Y prefers speaker B: This means that he/she prefers a slightly less linear reproduction, with extra input from the speaker.
Neither option is correct or incorrect. But let's differentiate between the two examples.

I'm so sorry, but I don't follow your logic at all, not even a little. First of all, what do you mean exactly by "measures better" exactly, and by the way, as am I sure you know, the CEA-2034 is not strictly a measurement of "linearity and faithful reproduction." So the entire syllogism is a non sequitur.
 
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stevenswall

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I wonder how many ASR members use Bowers speakers in their main setup but do so quietly due to the scorn and derision heaped upon the brand here?

I've enjoyed the 801 D3 when I listened to it for a few songs... But I'd certainly scorn the company for not making an active version, as I agree with DigiPete that the Genelec 8260 (and a sub) seems to do everything at least as good and many things better.
 

atsmusic

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I've enjoyed the 801 D3 when I listened to it for a few songs... But I'd certainly scorn the company for not making an active version, as I agree with DigiPete that the Genelec 8260 (and a sub) seems to do everything at least as good and many things better.

you mean 800 D3?
 

stevenswall

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you mean 800 D3?

Hard to keep track of their naming scheme. The first or second largest one, the prior generation. Isn't it 801 802 803 as thing get smaller, and then D for the generation?
 

atsmusic

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Hard to keep track of their naming scheme. The first or second largest one, the prior generation. Isn't it 801 802 803 as thing get smaller, and then D for the generation?

it's been 800 802 803 for a long time, the new gen the flagship is called 801.
 

kchap

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I wonder how many ASR members use Bowers speakers in their main setup but do so quietly due to the scorn and derision heaped upon the brand here?
I own a pair of B&W 803 Nautilus. I bought them about 10 years ago second hand. I would fire'em up occasionally but since getting back into audio about a year ago, I listen to them on a daily basis. I like them.

I'm aware of my cognitive dissonance. One day they will stop working. Then the question will be:

Do I go for a pair of 802 D4s, against all your pleadings or do I get the KEF Reference 5s. One day we will know.
 

atsmusic

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I own a pair of B&W 803 Nautilus. I bought them about 10 years ago second hand. I would fire'em up occasionally but since getting back into audio about a year ago, I listen to them on a daily basis. I like them.

I'm aware of my cognitive dissonance. One day they will stop working. Then the question will be:

Do I go for a pair of 802 D4s, against all your pleadings or do I get the KEF Reference 5s. One day we will know.


I would suggest listening to a wide range of different speakers and then decide.
 

richard12511

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Speaker measurements can also be misleading, so many variables from the room itself to the actual microphone placement.
Many enthusiasts would glance at the two graphs below and automatically predict that the first speaker has a much more "neutral" and "correct" sound and that the second speaker has a pronounced "artificial" or "colored" top end.

The problem is that it is the same speaker (which I also owned at one time), so which graph tells the "truth" and gives a better indication of how the speaker will sound?





https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=839:nrc-measurements-polk-audio-lsim703-loudspeakers&catid=77:loudspeaker-measurements&Itemid=18

https://www.stereophile.com/content/polk-lsiiim703-loudspeaker-measurements

I'd trust soundstage over stereophile, but neither would I trust as much as an NFS measurement.
 

richard12511

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I own a pair of B&W 803 Nautilus. I bought them about 10 years ago second hand. I would fire'em up occasionally but since getting back into audio about a year ago, I listen to them on a daily basis. I like them.

I'm aware of my cognitive dissonance. One day they will stop working. Then the question will be:

Do I go for a pair of 802 D4s, against all your pleadings or do I get the KEF Reference 5s. One day we will know.

802D4 and send one to Amir :)
 

richard12511

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Would it be possible to him to go to a store that has these and do the measurements there? It would cost a fortune to mail that.

He'd have to disassemble his NFS and rebuild it at the store.

Shipping will be expensive, but I bet we could crowd fund it. I'd certainly be willing to chip in for what is probably my favorite speaker, aesthetically. At first, I wasn't a fan of the leather on the top of the cabinet, but I'm starting to really like it. The Sonus Faber Aida, my second favorite design, also uses leather.
 

atsmusic

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He'd have to disassemble his NFS and rebuild it at the store.

Shipping will be expensive, but I bet we could crowd fund it. I'd certainly be willing to chip in for what is probably my favorite speaker, aesthetically. At first, I wasn't a fan of the leather on the top of the cabinet, but I'm starting to really like it. The Sonus Faber Aida, my second favorite design, also uses leather.
He'd have to disassemble his NFS and rebuild it at the store.

Shipping will be expensive, but I bet we could crowd fund it. I'd certainly be willing to chip in for what is probably my favorite speaker, aesthetically. At first, I wasn't a fan of the leather on the top of the cabinet, but I'm starting to really like it. The Sonus Faber Aida, my second favorite design, also uses leather.

So does that mean it's not possible? If it was seems a lot more BIG speaker reviews could be done.
 

richard12511

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Maybe he could do what he did with the Revel F328Be, buy it, measure it, then sell it :p.

Or, if either B&W or a local dealer could lend one to Amir to measure(even for a price, which we could crowd fund), that would earn them huge props. Ignoring the aesthetics that I love, speakers like this that are obviously shooting for a different(non-neutral/non-Harman) target are what is most needed now to push forward the science. Other examples would be big Magnepans, Sanders, or LX521. We've got plenty of near perfect Harman like examples measured now, but perhaps there are other targets that or just as preferred(or better).

One thing to note is that the B&Ws that were losing to Revel and JBL speakers in those blind listening tests were older models that were shooting for a more neutral target sound.
 

atsmusic

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Maybe he could do what he did with the Revel F328Be, buy it, measure it, then sell it :p.

Or, if either B&W or a local dealer could lend one to Amir to measure(even for a price, which we could crowd fund), that would earn them huge props. Ignoring the aesthetics that I love, speakers like this that are obviously shooting for a different(non-neutral/non-Harman) target are what is most needed now to push forward the science. Other examples would be big Magnepans, Sanders, or LX521. We've got plenty of near perfect Harman like examples measured now, but perhaps there are other targets that or just as preferred(or better).

One thing to note is that the B&Ws that were losing to Revel and JBL speakers in those blind listening tests were older models that were shooting for a more neutral target sound.


Great idea. Would be awesome to see some dealers near him lend some speakers for testing. Like you said, even at a price that we could all chip in on.
 
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