B&W 800D4 series

[MarcT]

Did you get inspired by me or do great minds think alike?
Next time let me know, and we can do some auditioning together.

Did you get inspired by me or do great minds think alike?
Next time let me know, and we can do some auditioning together.

I sent you a PM.

 

[Matias]

801D4 measured in German Stereo magazine. A higher level mid-treble starting about 800 Hz which balanced to somewhat flat under 30°, but with a large dip in about 2.2 kHz probably caused by directivity mismatch between mid and tweeter.

For reference, below is 800D3. I see it as being a little more balanced than the newer 801D4!

 

[tecnogadget]

801D4 measured in German Stereo magazine. A higher level mid-treble starting about 800 Hz which balanced to somewhat flat under 30°, but with a large dip in about 2.2 kHz probably caused by directivity mismatch between mid and tweeter.

View attachment 162979

For reference, below is 800D3. I see it as being a little more balanced than the newer 801D4!

View attachment 162980

Just what we were suspecting all this time, doesn’t deserve the “absolute reference” tag/title, but neither bad at all, if it gets flatter under 30° then it should benefit from no toe-in.

 

[richard12511]

801D4 measured in German Stereo magazine. A higher level mid-treble starting about 800 Hz which balanced to somewhat flat under 30°, but with a large dip in about 2.2 kHz probably caused by directivity mismatch between mid and tweeter.

View attachment 162979

For reference, below is 800D3. I see it as being a little more balanced than the newer 801D4!

View attachment 162980

Thanks for posting these. Very interesting, and not what I was expecting. New ones seem to have significantly less energy above 10kHz. In my experience, that will make them sound more distant(could be positive or negative, depending on taste). BBC dip is also significantly reduced, to the point where even the bottom of the dip is clearly higher than everything outside the treble.

I really need to hear these, though I may have to take a short road trip to hear them. Based on just those measurements, I would expect them to sound a bit "brighter" than the D3, but less "airy". That said, we really need way more measurements. Those alone are not enough to really make a good guess.

 

[jkr]

I was a long time B&W fan however the new Diamond starting with the D2 are too much in your face and I could never make the speakers disappear as I can with the D1's. Also I would not recommend the purchase of any B&W speaker at this time. I have had a Diamond D1 tweeter on parts order for over a year now. They sent me one a month ago that had a 6 month old date on it and the rubber surround was not attached to the dome all the way. Very poor quality. I sent it back as I refuse to pay almost $1000 for a tweeter that was manufactured like a 2 year old made it.

 

[tecnogadget]

jkr could you post a close up picture of the disattached tweeter surround ?

 

[jkr]

jkr could you post a close up picture of the disattached tweeter surround ?

 

[jkr]

I am stuck with a pair of expensive paper weights. I can't even sell them now. I will not keep them as parts taking over a year is not acceptable. Look at their online parts for US. Everything is on factory back order for over a year. When they do get an ETA they keep bumping it up when it gets close to the ETA date. Next purchase will NOT be B&W. I think they are short lived. Probably Wilson's.

 

[jkr]

801D4 measured in German Stereo magazine. A higher level mid-treble starting about 800 Hz which balanced to somewhat flat under 30°, but with a large dip in about 2.2 kHz probably caused by directivity mismatch between mid and tweeter.

View attachment 162979

For reference, below is 800D3. I see it as being a little more balanced than the newer 801D4!

View attachment 162980

No wonder I like the older Diamonds better then these new models.

 

[MarcT]

So, I stopped by the Best Buy in Frisco, TX this afternoon to get a listen to the D4 series. My biggest concern about the D3 series is that, when hearing them at audio shows, the tweeters seemed to produce a super high frequency "buzziness" to my ears. I wanted to try to hear if the D4 tweeters were any different. I wasn't able to stay long today, so further listening may be in order.

The first room I visited had a slew of speakers all in a row, with the 804D4 being the inner most speakers, followed by the 702S2 and 703S2. I only had the guy play the B&W speakers. The room was untreated and pretty "live", and absolutely full of speakers, so I don't know how much one can tell in that setting. I didn't think the 804D4 really sounded all that special. I didn't hear the high frequency "buzziness" that I have heard with the D3 speakers, but when playing London Grammar Hey Now, Hanna Reid's higher and louder notes did become "edgy" sounding to me(could have been room reflections, to be fair). Not that the 804D4 sounded bad, but they didn't seem to sound that much better or different from the 702S2 and 703S2. Again, maybe the room is so bad that it's hard to tell. I actually think I liked the less expensive 703S2 better than the 702S2, and the salesman said he did too.

The next room, which had the more expensive speakers was better treated. I wanted to hear their 803D4, but the sales guy said that system was not working. So, I listened to the 802D4 in there. The sound was much better in that room, but the 802D4 just didn't do that much for me. They produced a pretty big sound stage and separation of instruments. The sound was not as open and dynamic as I would hope. I didn't think cymbals sounded all that natural. Perhaps the McIntosh electronics were not doing them any favors.

 

[atsmusic]

I listen to the 800 d3s almost every day and don't sound "buzzy" at all in my room. I am actually pretty amazed how good they sound every time I listen. I feel really lucky to have them.

 

[bo_knows]

So, I stopped by the Best Buy in Frisco, TX this afternoon to get a listen to the D4 series. My biggest concern about the D3 series is that, when hearing them at audio shows, the tweeters seemed to produce a super high frequency "buzziness" to my ears. I wanted to try to hear if the D4 tweeters were any different. I wasn't able to stay long today, so further listening may be in order.

The first room I visited had a slew of speakers all in a row, with the 804D4 being the inner most speakers, followed by the 702S2 and 703S2. I only had the guy play the B&W speakers. The room was untreated and pretty "live", and absolutely full of speakers, so I don't know how much one can tell in that setting. I didn't think the 804D4 really sounded all that special. I didn't hear the high frequency "buzziness" that I have heard with the D3 speakers, but when playing London Grammar Hey Now, Hanna Reid's higher and louder notes did become "edgy" sounding to me(could have been room reflections, to be fair). Not that the 804D4 sounded bad, but they didn't seem to sound that much better or different from the 702S2 and 703S2. Again, maybe the room is so bad that it's hard to tell. I actually think I liked the less expensive 703S2 better than the 702S2, and the salesman said he did too.

The next room, which had the more expensive speakers was better treated. I wanted to hear their 803D4, but the sales guy said that system was not working. So, I listened to the 802D4 in there. The sound was much better in that room, but the 802D4 just didn't do that much for me. They produced a pretty big sound stage and separation of instruments. The sound was not as open and dynamic as I would hope. I didn't think cymbals sounded all that natural. Perhaps the McIntosh electronics were not doing them any favors.

I was there as well, and I think the problem is that no one knowledgeable has spent any time trying to find the sweet spot in that room for those speakers. What I mean, you are left alone in the room to sit where ever you please.
This will not yield the best results since moving your head a few inches could make all the difference.
The room has great dimensions and has a decent amount of professional treatments that work. Top mac gear is the last issue there.
Again, until someone there (preferably a mastering engineer) spends some time tuning the position of the speakers and finding the "right" MLP, I don't think is fair for us to judge the performance of the speaker. Until there is X marked on the floor and the salesman tells you to sit there because that is the sweet spot, you are left wondering around like a child in a candy store. You may or may not find the sweet spot on your own in your 20-30 minute audition. Not to mention, that little short portable seat that they have there for you to sit on. One will need a proper chair with a height adjustment to dial best on-axis midrange/tweeter response. Just food for thought.

 

[MarcT]

I was there as well, and I think the problem is that no one knowledgeable has spent any time trying to find the sweet spot in that room for those speakers. What I mean, you are left alone in the room to sit where ever you please.
This will not yield the best results since moving your head a few inches could make all the difference.
The room has great dimensions and has a decent amount of professional treatments that work. Top mac gear is the last issue there.
Again, until someone there (preferably a mastering engineer) spends some time tuning the position of the speakers and finding the "right" MLP, I don't think is fair for us to judge the performance of the speaker. Until there is X marked on the floor and the salesman tells you to sit there because that is the sweet spot, you are left wondering around like a child in a candy store. You may or may not find the sweet spot on your own in your 20-30 minute audition. Not to mention, that little short portable seat that they have there for you to sit on. One will need a proper chair with a height adjustment to dial best on-axis midrange/tweeter response. Just food for thought.

Yes, that seat is on wheels, so I did roll forward and backward a couple times, but certainly not enough to tell much. I also wonder if their toe-in is optimal. But still, I didn't think the highs sounded that good, but maybe it was the recording or the track that they played. So many variables.

 

[jkr]

I think the problem is that no one knowledgeable has spent any time trying to find the sweet spot in that room for those speakers.

I have lived with the 800D2, 802D2, 802D3 and 802D1. I tried to like the 800D2, 802D2 and the 802D3 for almost a year however The top end sound always pointed to the speaker and the staging was always in front of and at the speakers. Sure they were clear as a bell but I could never get the great staging / imagining that I can get with the 802D1's. I tried everything and spent many hours moving and adjusting them on their spikes. With the D1's the stage is large and behind the speakers. The instruments would have no boundaries as if there were no walls. At first the newer Diamonds sounded great however the longer I listened the more I knew I could never live with them. Could not stand how they imaged. I ended up selling them all but the D1's.

 

[bo_knows]

Yes, that seat is on wheels, so I did roll forward and backward a couple times, but certainly not enough to tell much. I also wonder if their toe-in is optimal. But still, I didn't think the highs sounded that good, but maybe it was the recording or the track that they played. So many variables.

I also wonder if their toe-in is optimal. Looking at your picture again, I don't think so.
I would think those speakers need more toe-in, meaning tweeter should be aimed at your ears or a few inches to the side.
As per Matias's post: "801D4 measured in German Stereo magazine. A higher level mid-treble starting about 800 Hz which balanced to somewhat flat under 30°, but with a large dip in about 2.2 kHz probably caused by directivity mismatch between mid and tweeter." Again, I think they needed to be more toed-in.

I'm sure jkr can share his opinion on the toe-in/out setup since he spent a considerable time with the 800 lines.

 

[jkr]

I also wonder if their toe-in is optimal. Looking at your picture again, I don't think so.
I would think those speakers need more toe-in, meaning tweeter should be aimed at your ears or a few inches to the side.
As per Matias's post: "801D4 measured in German Stereo magazine. A higher level mid-treble starting about 800 Hz which balanced to somewhat flat under 30°, but with a large dip in about 2.2 kHz probably caused by directivity mismatch between mid and tweeter." Again, I think they needed to be more toed-in.

I'm sure jkr can share his opinion on the toe-in/out setup since he spent a considerable time with the 800 lines.

Yes. They need toe-in. They are very picky on placement, toe-in and even tilt. They sound the best when the tweeters are pointing about 2-4 feet behind your head. You can tell right away when you get it right. I have some test tracks that I use where the sound sounds like its coming from the side walls to your left and right. (You would think there are wall speakers mounted to ether side.) Unfortunately with the newer Diamonds I could never get them to image well like the D1's. If you like the sound stage in front of the speakers and like to hear sound coming directly from the Diamond tweeter then you may like the newer Diamonds. It doesn't sound realistic to me.

 

[MarcT]

Yes. They need toe-in. They are very picky on placement, toe-in and even tilt. They sound the best when the tweeters are pointing about 2-4 feet behind your head. You can tell right away when you get it right. I have some test tracks that I use where the sound sounds like its coming from the side walls to your left and right. (You would think there are wall speakers mounted to ether side.) Unfortunately with the newer Diamonds I could never get them to image well like the D1's. If you like the sound stage in front of the speakers and like to hear sound coming directly from the Diamond tweeter then you may like the newer Diamonds. It doesn't sound realistic to me.

Well, if they are this persnickety on toe-in, then they are of little use to me, since my system is a family room setup and my guests and I need to get decent sound off-axis when watching movies. I also often listen to music while moving about the area.

 

[TheBatsEar]

these studies are my legacy to future generations

Shall be known as "ctrl's overlay" in enlightened circles from now on, we will carry your legacy.

Anyway, i think you guys are taking to much stock in second class measurements and FRs. I wan't to see distortion at different power levels, only then i can decide if i can EQ them to my room.

 

[ctrl]

Shall be known as "ctrl's overlay" in enlightened circles from now on, we will carry your legacy.

It's good to know that one has achieved something in life
This time with irony tag. Otherwise people think "megalomania, German, ...great! At least he is not Austrian".

Anyway, i think you guys are taking to much stock in second class measurements and FRs. I wan't to see distortion at different power levels, only then i can decide if i can EQ them to my room.

As controversial as B&W's speaker designs are, harmonic distortion (IMD is usually not measured in reviews) has never been a problem, at least with the larger models - AFAIK.

In post#520 THD was shown for the 804D4 at various sound pressure levels.
At an average sound pressure level of 95dB, about 6% THD is shown at 50Hz. That's not bad.
(the sound pressure level has dropped to about 88dB@50Hz during the THD measurement, but this is probably largely due to the measurement method).

 

[Matias]

The latest HiFi News from the UK has a review of the 801D4:
View attachment 158736
I presume the deviation from the results in the German magazines is down to differences in measurement technique.
There’s certainly no evidence of a ‘BBC dip’ here, but for £30k I have to say it seems rather disappointing.

Now online:

B&W 801 D4 Loudspeaker Lab Report

Lab Report Rated at 90dB sensitivity, the new 801 D4 romps home with a very fine 89.7dB (1kHz) and 89.5dB (500Hz-8kHz). The forward response trend now has something of a +2dB 'step' between 100Hz-1kHz and 1kHz-20kHz [see Graph 1, below], resulting in errors of ±3.3dB from 200Hz-20kHz or ±2.2dB...

hifinews.com