nerdoldnerdith
Senior Member
Their target curve is aimed at those with high frequency hearing loss and plenty of money to spend.
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I agree with the above …that 10Khz peak IS AUDIBLE, even off-axis! It’s aimed at older rich Gentlesquires that have hearing up to around that frequency
I have a mod on my 805D3 now which reduces the tweeter and measures a lot flatter - lo an behold, they sound ‘natural’ now (can’t imagine why that is)! ;-)
I have a mod on my 805D3 now which reduces the tweeter and measures a lot flatter - lo an behold, they sound ‘natural’ now (can’t imagine why that is)! ;-)
But what happens when those folks go to a concert?Their target curve is aimed at those with high frequency hearing loss and plenty of money to spend.
Well you can’t argue with people’s taste. I guess.
Clearly you are good at regurgitating what you read on Internet forums.
And you know this how? Clearly you don't know what you're talking about. I have owned 805s and 803s in the past and have seen the measurements in Stereophile from the current crop of B&Ws. Their response is not flat. Show me some measurements that prove me wrong.
Nice strawman. No loudspeaker has a perfectly flat response, nor is a perfectly flat response a requirement for highly subjective preference.
Also, I was responding to your wild claim of:"
Clearly their current target curve isn't aimed at people with lots of experience listening to live, unamplified music in a real space (concert hall)."
Good luck finding evidence to support that one, Chief.
A little condescending there, buddy. I repeat, show me measurements from the current crop of B&W that aim for flat response. If they exist, I will retract my previous comment. With such wildly unflat response (based on the measurements I have seen) they must appeal to folks that have no idea what the real thing sounds like.
Gentlemen, gentlemen, please. Such discourse is unbecoming of those shopping in this price range...
Plus, you're probably both right but talking across each other on slightly different points.
Plus, you're probably both right but talking across each other on slightly different points.
You wrote: "Clearly their current target curve isn't aimed at people with lots of experience listening to live, unamplified music in a real space (concert hall)."
Perhaps you can start by explaining why you believe that, and how you can reconcile how renowned recording studios, including Abbey Road and Skywalker Sound, use B&W 800-series monitors in their flagship sound rooms? Are you suggesting that the recording engineers at these institutions have "no idea what the real thing sounds like?" Or are you an award-winning master recording engineer yourself?
My only response is that just because they are used in a sound studio doesn’t make them accurate. And no, I am not a Master recording engineer, just a classical music lover who has been into audio for over 50 years and has spent quite a bit of time in two of the best concert halls in the world, and knows what the real thing sounds like. That’s all I got to offer.
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Like I said, except for the folks who literally have live instruments one side of the door, and speakers on the other side. They literally compare the two things a hundred times a day. So they know what the real thing sounds like, believe me. To believe otherwise takes weird to a whole new dimension. If you're puzzled why people who live with live sound choose B&W, that's fine, but do try to come up with a more plausible explanation.
nerdoldnerdith
Senior Member
The inconsistency among speakers even within the same lineup draws into question what they are trying to achieve:
I will say though that the 805D3 pictured above has some pretty decent measurements.
But clearly these things were designed to go in rooms with a lot of acoustic treatment where these measurements don't matter as much. And they were designed with tube amps in mind.
I will say though that the 805D3 pictured above has some pretty decent measurements.
But clearly these things were designed to go in rooms with a lot of acoustic treatment where these measurements don't matter as much. And they were designed with tube amps in mind.
restorer-john
Grand Contributor
I'll take a pair of 801 D4s thank you.
thewas
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We also don't know if in those famous (and always used as an argument for their supposed neutrality contradicting the measurements reality) studios they are used with EQ. Also using non neutral loudspeakers has always been a thing of the past (see NS-10 for example) and has contributed to the unfortunate big variation in recordings quality
Source of image: http://seanolive.blogspot.com/2009/10/audios-circle-of-confusion.html
Anyway, this discussion always comes up and even Floyd Toole has written about it
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...cal-music-pros-using.12225/page-8#post-841644
and its vertical one suffers from the non steep crossover (which cannot be corrected via EQ)
Source of measurements: https://www.stereophile.com/content/bowers-wilkins-805-d3-loudspeaker-measurements
Source of image: http://seanolive.blogspot.com/2009/10/audios-circle-of-confusion.html
Anyway, this discussion always comes up and even Floyd Toole has written about it
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...cal-music-pros-using.12225/page-8#post-841644
The horizontal directivity which you show on the upper plot is quite good due to the low order crossover, on the other hand its LW FR is not really neutral (which can be corrected though via EQ)
and its vertical one suffers from the non steep crossover (which cannot be corrected via EQ)
Source of measurements: https://www.stereophile.com/content/bowers-wilkins-805-d3-loudspeaker-measurements
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DACs_Lover
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I am waiting for the new KEF reference series. In the past, I used BW 804n. It sounds good. BUT I was hooked by KEF co-axial drivers REF 1 and never return to B&W.
I had my 805D3 measured anechoically independently a few months ago as the treble has always bugged me over the past year I’ve owned them (from new; and no amount of ‘driving them in’ fixes that) - those independent measurements came back spot on as per the above; even with Tweeter direct circumventing the XO entirely the plot was about the same, so it’s the D3 tweeter by default which behaves this way…and that 10Khz lift is very audible (I don’t care what anyone says about it not existing off-axis) which makes most vocals sound sandy i.e. the ‘sSs’ sound
I’ve got an external high end Mills resistor (on a jumper) to lower that 3-4db and it sounds great now with no loss of fidelity to my ears - the 805D3 can sound natural without having to buy a MacIntosh/Tubes …and it sure sounds more refined than when I had a Matched Pair of Tubes in a Nobsound device inline with my DAC
Am very interested too see the new frequency plot of the 805D4 Tweeter
OP
- Thread Starter
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As long as the tweeter is mounted on that tube with no waveguide it is going to radiate treble to the sides a lot, and sound bright, even if on axis is flat, on the listening position with the room reflections it adds up.
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DSJR
Major Contributor
You can if they're supplied as a promotion...
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In any loudspeaker designer's cookbook, with the results of decades of research readily available, wouldn't that response curve shown above serve as an example of what should be avoided at all costs? It's what might be expected from a cheap loudspeaker, not one with aspirations towards high quality.The horizontal directivity which you show on the upper plot is quite good due to the low order crossover, on the other hand its LW FR is not really neutral (which can be corrected though via EQ)
Source of measurement: https://www.stereophile.com/content/bowers-wilkins-805-d3-loudspeaker-measurements
In contrast to the above example, we look below to the B&W DM6 Monitor Loudspeaker System from 1975. It seems that it could be fruitful to return back to those drawing boards of the 1970s.
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