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B&W 800D3 HiFi Speaker = Porsche GT3 Sport Car

sarumbear

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raest

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wow. c'mon man. 1) that's the UK, who drive on the wrong side, so of course the prices are lower (jealous as hell of your car market). take a look at mobile.de and it's a different story. 2) the "cheap as chips" ones are the (undeservedly, imo) unloved 996s, and majority cabrio and 4s at that. just go the the next, much more loved generation and you there isn't a single 997 under 20k pounds on ebay (since that's what you chose) even in the UK.

under half msrp is par for the course in speakerlandia. the Salon 2s aren't special as far as resale goes. the previously mentioned limited Dynaudio release is better (for now) as are, for example Genelec Ones (going by historical "sold" data on hifishark). hell, KEF's "old" Blades (both one and two) seem to be holding up relatively better even though they just released the Meta updated versions
 

sarumbear

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under half msrp is par for the course in speakerlandia. the Salon 2s aren't special as far as resale goes. the previously mentioned limited Dynaudio release is better (for now) as are, for example Genelec Ones (going by historical "sold" data on hifishark). hell, KEF's "old" Blades (both one and two) seem to be holding up relatively better even though they just released the Meta updated versions
Thanks for confirming what I meant in a round about way :)
 

raest

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Thanks for confirming what I meant in a round about way :)
then what you meant and what you said are two different things

i asked if there are speakers that hold their value as well as 911 limited editions. you responded the Salon 2. that's obviously not the case as they seem to hold their value within the average, so i half-jokingly made a statement that it's not even regular production 911 resale (and we're kinda both right, since 996s, which only produced for 7 years out of 58 years of 911 history, sells for below average, even worse than the Salon 2 average in certain markets... depending how far you'd want to qualify), and gave examples of speakers that hold their value better (for now) than your example (still not limited 911 levels, which was my original question)

so which statement of yours did i confirm again?
 

sarumbear

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i asked if there are speakers that hold their value as well as 911 limited editions...
I am sorry I missed the limited editions bit and reacted to the very high drop in price of 911 in general.
 

GrumpyOldMan

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B&W is more like a Lamborghini, or maybe a Jaguar, loud, brash, lots of technology, decent looks, doesn't perform for sh**. Porsche's engineering standards and performance per dollar are way beyond B&W. Much more of a scalpel. (...)
Let's keep in mind that the 911 is, whime well enginered, still att best a gimmick-car because of the wonky design choice of placing the treble... uhm, I mean the engine... uhrm... ... In fact, I think B&W might be EXACTLY the 911 GT3 of HiFi speakers!
 

NeoZs99

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What's the Toyota GR86 equivalent to? I'm perfectly fine with Toyota :)
 

raest

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Let's keep in mind that the 911 is, whime well enginered, still att best a gimmick-car because of the wonky design choice of placing the treble... uhm, I mean the engine... uhrm... ... In fact, I think B&W might be EXACTLY the 911 GT3 of HiFi speakers!
it was a gimmick many decades ago, today it's one of the best performing sports cars in the world, outpacing in many (if not all, depending on exact models) metrics, from acceleration to handling, much fancier supercars.

it just deepens the comparison with KEF, i guess? the coaxials were kinda gimmicky many decades ago, but now or some of the best drivers around
What's the Toyota GR86 equivalent to? I'm perfectly fine with Toyota :)
the "around 1k" Genelecs?
 

cavedriver

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Let's keep in mind that the 911 is, whime well enginered, still att best a gimmick-car because of the wonky design choice of placing the treble... uhm, I mean the engine... uhrm... ... In fact, I think B&W might be EXACTLY the 911 GT3 of HiFi speakers!
it was a gimmick many decades ago, today it's one of the best performing sports cars in the world, outpacing in many (if not all, depending on exact models) metrics, from acceleration to handling, much fancier supercars.

it just deepens the comparison with KEF, i guess? the coaxials were kinda gimmicky many decades ago, but now or some of the best drivers around
haha, yeah, GrumpyOldMan is more or less right, at least about the compromise of the 911's engine placement. Yes, they have done wonders to develop a suspension that compensates for the less than optimal engine placement, and the water cooled cars have been gradually moving the engine forward a bit to reduce the overhang, but there is no doubt that if the Cayman were allowed to take the Porsche halo car mantle from the 911 it would rapidly surpass it's performance. Now if you look at the mis-matched driver loads and resistance swings of some of the mid-to-upper end B&W's, then yes I suppose you could say B&W has compensated rather well for a basic design handicap, although maybe it's amplifier design that has had to compensate for the bad speaker design, so maybe B&W is more like Windows and amplifiers are Intel.

I wouldn't go so far as to call the 911 a gimmick, though. That's a bit too insulting. When the car was invented and the engine was air cooled it was the best solution to the set of problem parameters. The only mistake is that when Porsche tried to replace the 911 with the 928 as their top performing car, they should have created the Cayman back then and then it could have actually succeeded in replacing the 911. Also note that the 911 endures in part because it's one of the more beautiful (if simple) and functional car shapes ever put into mass production.
 
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aschen

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the 911 factory works RSR 911 race cars are mid engine these days even though they try to hide it a bit. 911 isnt a gimick it a compromise in packaging to make a 2+2 sports car. Everything is a compromise in engineering. Implementation is always more important than architecture. Rear engine has a lot of actual advantages over mid, acceleration out of corners and braking potential as well. Overall mid is better but we are talking about road cars with AC and gasp even struts until very recently. I think GT3RS will still be a bit faster than GT4rs when we start seeing the track comparisons. The more critical things is the cars will stay together under heavy track use which is not true of most stock cars in this performance category.
 

symphara

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What nobody's mentioning about these GT/RS/etc cars is that on normal roads they are a pain in the butt - literally! - and then for your lower back, spine etc.

For speaker analogy, I'd rather have the equivalent of a Bentley Continental GT :)

I was told that Revel has a replacement for the Salon 2 in the works.
 

DVDdoug

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I LOVE BIG speakers!!!! I love the look of the big mid-high horn! I also like efficient speakers!

But realistically and practically, these days amplifier power is cheaper & more practical than speaker size & efficiency. The original Klipschorn was introduced in the days of low-power tube amps before most of us were born.


...My "speaker stack" is taller than that, but not as wide or deep.
 

tuga

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B&W is more like a Lamborghini, or maybe a Jaguar, loud, brash, lots of technology, decent looks, doesn't perform for sh**. Porsche's engineering standards and performance per dollar are way beyond B&W. Much more of a scalpel. KEF could be good as mentioned, not sure what else matches the analogy since a lot of the best speakers out there can't approach cars for hours of engineering or history of development effort. maybe the top end of the Revel or Elac ranges?
It’s a Dodge Viper
 

Slayer

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It is very efficient, but lack dynamic (when playing classical music) and the horn tweeter characteristic is an acquired taste.
Disagree about the lack of dynamics comment, this is where horn loaded speakers usually excel.
Horns seem to come in two categories, good or bad. They are as you said for many people an acquired taste.
 

bkdc

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Revel Salon2 does well…
Until the next generation of Ultimas gets released. It sells for half price or less these days but it is an OLD OLD model. I don’t know of any speaker that does well.

My Bentley Continental of speakers is the TAD Reference One. Priced well beyond what I’m willing to pay even in the used market. I guess that makes my 911 of speakers the TAD Compact Reference One.
 
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sarumbear

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Until the next generation of Ultimas gets released. It sells for half price or less these days but it is an OLD OLD model. I don’t know of any speaker that does well.

My Bentley Continental of speakers is the TAD Reference One. Priced well beyond what I’m willing to pay even in the used market. I guess that makes my 911 of speakers the TAD Compact Reference One.
I guess that’s why because they sold about five pairs…
 

tuga

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sarumbear

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I've attended a demo by Andrew Jones of the Reference Ones partnered with D600 CD player, C600 preamp and M700 monos.
Annoyingly loud at times but one of the best commercial speakers I've listened to.

Linkwitz agreed: https://www.linkwitzlab.com/design_of_loudspeakers.htm#B
Funny you referenced that. I was with Siegfried at that CES. The speakers indeed sounded, and looked fabulous. However, they were laboratory experiments; exceedingly small numbers were produced and even less were sold.
 
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