B&W 800 D3 vs KEF Blade. Let's discuss.

[phoenixdogfan]

I would never buy any of those because they're not what I want to see in my living room.

I don't want big black utilitarian studio monitor speakers in my living room. I save that look for my office.

Maybe the Kii's would be okay, as they're not quite as pro-audio looking.

Completely understandable. I live with my speaker purchases for 5-15 years, so naturally, like you, I want something that's not only good sounding, but also good looking.

 

[andreasmaaan]

The Blade 2 (not the first larger one) measure imho even smoother than the also great current Reference ones due to their rounded surface, the Reference uses the "shadow flare" to reduce the effect (see the white paper https://www.shop.us.kef.com/pub/med...rence/REF_White_Paper_preview_path_200514.pdf ) of the edges but still...

Below some measurements of the Ref 5 vs Blade 2 both from Stereophile to be more comparable (on top always Ref 5):

View attachment 102438

View attachment 102439

View attachment 102440

View attachment 102441

View attachment 102442

View attachment 102443

Sources: https://www.stereophile.com/content/kef-reference-5-loudspeaker-measurements
https://www.stereophile.com/content/kef-blade-two-loudspeaker-measurements

A more significant difference though is that the Blade 2 starts having directivity earlier but keeps it more constant like a kind of CD vs. the more increasing to higher frequencies directivity of the Ref 5 which choice is preferred is rather a matter of personal taste and room acoustics.

I know for myself anyway if money wasn't an issue I would go for the Blade 2 but the Ref is a great approximation for a quite lower price with a "non cult" design though. The Blade will be also in the future a design and collectors classic like the B&W Nautilus while the Ref will be more forgotten when replaced by the newer generations which might be an aspect to a Hifi collector.

The Blade 2 is a little smoother on-axis, and wider-directivity off-axis, but the Ref is smoother off-axis due to the Blade’s side-firing woofer configuration. I guess I wouldn’t go in assuming the the Blade 2 is going to sound better to a given listener - not based on measurements alone, anyway. Spending that kind of money, I’d want to listen in my own room first.

Definitely hear what you’re saying about the Blade being more valuable as a collector’s item/statement speaker.

 

[tuga]

The Blade 2 is a little smoother on-axis, and wider-directivity off-axis, but the Ref is smoother off-axis due to the Blade’s side-firing woofer configuration. I guess I wouldn’t go in assuming the the Blade 2 is going to sound better to a given listener - not based on measurements alone, anyway. Spending that kind of money, I’d want to listen in my own room first.

Definitely hear what you’re saying about the Blade being more valuable as a collector’s item/statement speaker.

The Blade 2 seems to produce constant directivity from around 250Hz upwards.
Do you think that this will help it to interact "better" with the room?

 

[watchnerd]

For these, to me, insane amounts of money I'd probably have a room built to spec with in-wall monitors and a double bass array. The combination just about solving anything in terms of boundary interference issues. Although some of these do look pretty I must say.

The blades are $32K.

I don't think you can get a custom room built for that, unless you just mean a re-model of an existing room.

 

[andreasmaaan]

The Blade 2 seems to produce constant directivity from around 250Hz upwards.
Do you think that this will help it to interact "better" with the room?

I’m not sure TBH, it looks like it would be a bit room/placement dependent.

Depending on toe-in, you may get lateral reflections that are either smoother or less smooth than a conventional driver layout.

It’s this region that I wonder about in particular:

In most setups, particularly where the speakers are toed-in in an equilateral triangle, the lateral reflections are going to have a very high intensity in the midrange, with those two dips on either side, at about 350Hz and 4kHz.

Although we don’t have a full spin, I’d expect the Refs to have smoother in-room/sound power responses.

The Refs are obviously narrower-directivity in the high frequencies, but overall are significantly better behaved off-axis.

Sorry, obvs not a very conclusive reply here...

 

[bandit]

First of all, welcome! Second, unless you're visually impaired you probably can read a measurements graph if you put a little bit of time in. You are talking about comparing speakers that are the same price as some new cars. I'd suggest reading the primer linked below on spinorama and then taking time to read a fair number of Amir's speaker reviews and it'll become 2nd nature. You should also check out Erin's Audio Corner and his comprehensive reviews of some very nice speakers. The more you read, the more you'll be able to correlate measurements with what you're hearing.

Good luck! https://www.sausalitoaudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Interpreting-Spinorama-Charts.pdf

This is extremely useful thank you so much!!!

 

[vitalii427]

800D3 is a thoroughly primitive design next to the Blade. Unfortunately audiophiles outside ASR are largely ignorant of the engineering and care only about the stories and myths built up over time.

Agreed. I was one of those ignorant audiophiles. I’ve owned 802 D2 since 2012, then 802 D3, then YG Hailey and now JBL 4367. I’ve listened extensively to Kii Three(without BXT) and still prefer my JBL with a bit of room eq

@bandit
From my own experience - B&W 8xx is just an overpriced piece of furniture.

 

[bandit]

Hi @bandit

Please do not take this as condescension. The B&W is not what you should look at. These days there are much better speakers at saner prices. THe majority here ( count me in) prefer active speakers. There are passive speakers that are very good but they are not as flexible as the better actives.
I would recommend to look at Revel.
Currently they have the
Revel Salon 2 around $22,000 in the USA
Revel F328Be Speaker $16,000 in the USA

I woul surmise both are better than the B&W.
For much less money, I would recommend to go toward the Dutch and Dutch 8C, complete system, just add a digital source, 12,000 Euros in Europe
If you really want to spend that kind of money.. You can't do worse than the
Kii 3 (complete audio system) about 10,000 euros and if there is the need, add the BXT woofers for a total of about $32,000 (Complete System Kii 3 + BXT woofers)
or , please don't laugh and this is serious

The Bang & Olufsen Beolab 50...
A complete serious audio system that is arguably one of the best looking speaker around. Audiophiles of all persuasion tend to dismiss B&O. Those speakers are the real deal. They deserve an audition and prepare to be shocked.
Peace

thank you for the precious advice! Duly noted

 

[bandit]

@bandit can I ask why you’re looking at the KEF Blades rather than one of the larger Reference models? I have to admit that I’m not aware of any comprehensive measurements of the KEF blades, but based on the measurements I have seen, I’m not convinced the larger Reference models aren’t better speakers.

the reference 5 with an msrp of 16.600EUR cost about half as the Blades so I thought the blades would perform better. I might be wrong!

 

[maverickronin]

It’s this region that I wonder about in particular:

Definitely this. Make me think they should have made it a 4 way with extra low/mid drivers on the front or made a bigger UniQ so they could cross the side firing woofers lower

 

[thewas]

The Blade 2 is a little smoother on-axis, and wider-directivity off-axis, but the Ref is smoother off-axis due to the Blade’s side-firing woofer configuration. I guess I wouldn’t go in assuming the the Blade 2 is going to sound better to a given listener - not based on measurements alone, anyway. Spending that kind of money, I’d want to listen in my own room first.

Of course, I didn't want to imply that the Blade will sound better to any listener but also not definitely worse as I thought you meant the Ref would be technically a better loudspeaker.

 

[thewas]

In most setups, particularly where the speakers are toed-in in an equilateral triangle, the lateral reflections are going to have a very high intensity in the midrange, with those two dips on either side, at about 350Hz and 4kHz.

Although we don’t have a full spin, I’d expect the Refs to have smoother in-room/sound power responses.

At John Atkinsons listening room those dips do not really appear in his in-room response, on the other hand the smoother and wider upper directivity is clearly visible

Fig.7 KEF Reference 5, spatially averaged, 1/6-octave response in JA's listening room (red); and of KEF Blade Two (blue) from https://www.stereophile.com/content/kef-reference-5-loudspeaker-measurements

which was possibly also one of the reasons why I loved their sound as much as I did in the big and acoustically good KEF room.

By the way also for the people who think that active monitors and bass cardioids always must a priori be significantly better, below the response of the D&D 8c at the same room

Fig.2 Dutch & Dutch 8c, spatially averaged, 1/6-octave response in JA's listening room with Martijn Mensink's REW correction filters (red) and without (green) from https://www.stereophile.com/content...e-loudspeaker-system-john-atkinson-april-2020

which also confirmed my own LP measurements when I compared the 8c with a KH310.

By this I don't want to say that good active monitors and bass cardioids are not a great option, just don't agree with some people who think they are the only great solution, so by all trust in science in the end it comes down to doing a lot of listening in your own room for the individual choice.

 

[andreasmaaan]

the reference 5 with an msrp of 16.600EUR cost about half as the Blades so I thought the blades would perform better. I might be wrong!

The two are quite different speakers (other than both being coaxial). If possible, I’d listen to both if I were you.

Of course, I didn't want to imply that the Blade will sound better to any listener but also not definitely worse as I thought you meant the Ref would be technically a better loudspeaker.

Ah no, didn’t mean that. They are both technically excellent speakers with different (slight) weaknesses is all I meant, and that if I were considering the Blades, I’d also want to make sure I gave the Refs a listen...

 

[thewas]

the reference 5 with an msrp of 16.600EUR cost about half as the Blades so I thought the blades would perform better. I might be wrong!

A pair of Blade 2 has a msrp of 22000€ so far below double the price of Ref 5.

 

[Thomas savage]

I think @Thomas savage also had reliability problems with his Giya's.

Just spend 10k on the 8c and be able to listen to things and not drop a bollock when you breathe on a driver.. plus when you move house you won't have to worry about all the above.

Love my g3's they were however designed without consideration for manufacturing and also without consideration for practical use , do those extremes warrant the performance they provide?


No.

Ultimately then they are a vainly project and vivid are a vanity company.

You need to know that before you buy their products . I love dickie but he's sending you out in a car thats designed to fail such is the tolerance of manufacturer, they need to be more honest about that .

Why? With software now you don't need to push physical engineering like that . Not anymore! As a customer its simply not worth pursuing these physical engineering ideals if performance is your end game .

 

[Thomas savage]

A pair of Blade 2 has a msrp of 22000€ so far below double the price of Ref 5.

Not worth it , look at the build cost vs performance!

Bad engineering!

 

[watchnerd]

Not worth it , look at the build cost vs performance!

Bad engineering!

You're underestimating how much money it takes to convince a surfboard waxer to relocate from Hawaii to the UK to work on that polished finish.

 

[thewas]

Not worth it , look at the build cost vs performance!

Bad engineering!

? I see a more laborious enclosure on the Blade than on a typical square MDF box like the Ref. Also don't see any bad engineering on either.

 

[Thomas savage]

Let's discuss speakers .., software and dsp vs physical engineering .

Theres likely a sweet spot but spending 30k on a physical design is way way way backward and says nothing good about the guys working in what must be backward looking ' vanity ' firms .

 

[Thomas savage]

? I see a more laborious enclosure on the Blade than on a typical square MDF box like the Ref. Also don't see any bad engineering on either.

Its bad engineering if you can achieve similar performance for vastly less cost.

Thats what engineering is , getting to destination as economically ( both financial and parts/ maintenance) as possible.

Anything else is vanity.