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B&W 800 D3 vs KEF Blade. Let's discuss.

direstraitsfan98

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I forgot to ask but whats wrong the class AB amps in the ATC's? Also what's wrong with active analog crossovers? As opposed to what? Active digital crossovers? I'm not knowledgeable at all how crossovers work so if you could help explain...
 

direstraitsfan98

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By modern standards, this is not very good.

index.php



Amir also gave the smaller monitors a not-so-good review.
OH cool I've never seen that measurement picture before. I've been trying to find measurements of the SCM150's. Where did you get this? Why is the bass 50-250hz so lumpy?
 

watchnerd

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I forgot to ask but whats wrong the class AB amps in the ATC's? Also what's wrong with active analog crossovers? As opposed to what? Active digital crossovers? I'm not knowledgeable at all how crossovers work so if you could help explain...

Analog active vs DSP crossovers is a mini essay unto itself, but there are many already written if you Google it. DSP crossovers are superior overall by large amounts.

AB amps vs Class D is mostly a matter of heat and weight.
 

GD Fan

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Didn’t really want to make my own thread for this question but since a lot of you guys are active here, and have experience with higher end speakers I did want to propose the question: in this price bracket of 30-50K USD, what else should one seriously, actually consider? I will be in the market for an entirely new system in a few years and I’m just planning ahead. So far I had come up with the following ideas. And before I get into it, please note, I place a lot of importance on being able to audition and see and hear the speakers in person, as well as being able to customize the speakers cabinet and visual looks of the enclosure to my liking. So here we go...

D&D 8C + a up to a half dozen subwoofers. Total cost ~15-40K depending on how crazy high end of subwoofers I wanted to get. I like this option because it allows me to go crazy with the budget on subwoofers, or perhaps invest in a nice digital front end as well. Or just pocket the money! Aesthetically I think this is by far the worst looking speaker of all the brands I’m going to mention going forward.


Kii 3 + BXT Modules. $37K. Subwoofers probably not needed and/or would be difficult or perhaps redundant(?) to implement with the BXT modules. If someone could confirm please. I like this option because I think it’s aesthetically very pleasing and I can order them in my favourite color + automotive finish: Lantana Purple.


ATC SCM150ASLT. $33K. The domestic (non pro) active version of the ATC SCM150; floor standing. I admit I’ve bought into the “cult” of British engineering at least so far as ATC is concerned (thanks @Ilkless ) Personally I think they are extraordinary speakers what with the option to choose them in ANY finish. In my case, if I get them, I’d get them in a walnut burl; high gloss polish finish. I think they would look simply stunning! And certainly sound great. One clear advantage the ATC has over any of the previously mentioned speakers is the fact it relies on its “tripack” amps, which, from what I’ve been told, are exceedingly simple to operate on for servicing in the event of equipment failure. As well, there are many reports of ATC active being in the field for decades before needing servicing. So the reliability is already established. Contrast that with the class d modules used in the Kii and D&D. And who knows the availability of the specific icepower amps used in them. It could be a natural progression for me to go for the ATC considering what speakers I currently own and what I would he replacing them with. I love big, bulky looking boxes. I love exotic and exquisite wood grain finishes. And I like big drivers and big dynamics. This is something I value highly and why I’m leaning slightly towards ATC over the previous options.

Lastly, and certainly not least, there is what I consider what is possibly the most exciting of all of the speakers I’ve talked about, and it’s the line of speakers from Geithain. What is exciting about them to me is they combine the European innovations that the D&D and Kii speakers offer, but in the large, boxy looking cabinets that I love about ATC. That, and they also use 15” drivers! More dynamics is always better. The problem with Geithain is they have absolutely zero presence in North America. In fact, I have emailed them and they told me I would need to speak to them directly if I wanted to order anything as they have no worldwide distributors. All of the other above mentioned speakers I would be able to audition first. Perhaps it doesn’t matter because like the D&D and like the Kii, the goal of these speakers is to use their suite of tools (DSP and cardioid designs) to improve the listening experience. I haven’t been able to dive into the Geithain speakers much yet but it does appear they are taking a more mechanical approach and don’t use DSP.

And of course, there’s always the passives options to consider... despite all the attention we on ASR, and I, give to actives, there is an allure to people like me to gravitate to the “high end” of passives. Wilson, Vivid, Magico, Yg, etc. These companies all make speakers in the $30-50K bracket. And I have been considering speakers from these brands. For the purposes of this post and potential discussion, I’d like to focus discussion on the active speakers I’ve mentioned so far. And obviously I’m willing to consider other active options like Genelic and KH Neumann and I’d be mad to not audition them alongside everything else. But they are at the bottom of my list because aesthetically I can’t stomach them.
Actually this would make a very good thread if its own. Pain in the arse, perhaps, but if it grows legs it really could add to the collective knowledge.
 

watchnerd

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Actually this would make a very good thread if its own. Pain in the arse, perhaps, but if it grows legs it really could add to the collective knowledge.

Is this 30-50k for the whole system or just for the speakers?

I don't think I could usefully spend 50K on speakers, mainly because I just don't need anything that big, designed to fill a ballroom.

30K would be enough for me to get as large a set of speakers as I need for this house or any likely future one.
 

direstraitsfan98

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Actually this would make a very good thread if its own. Pain in the arse, perhaps, but if it grows legs it really could add to the collective knowledge.
I may make a new thread one day. I'm not really in a position any time soon to be purchasing the new system and things could be radically different in a few years. Maybe D&D will release a subwoofer module for their speakers and I'll have another option alongside the Kii to consider. Or B&O will suddenly invent some wild new technology or speaker. Who knows... in any case I think its a mistake to set myself a budget floor and instead just set a ceiling. But it does turn out that most of the speakers I was looking at run into the close to mid 5 figures.
 

watchnerd

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I may make a new thread one day. I'm not really in a position any time soon to be purchasing the new system and things could be radically different in a few years. Maybe D&D will release a subwoofer module for their speakers and I'll have another option alongside the Kii to consider. Or B&O will suddenly invent some wild new technology or speaker. Who knows... in any case I think its a mistake to set myself a budget floor and instead just set a ceiling. But it does turn out that most of the speakers I was looking at run into the close to mid 5 figures.

You need to add TAD to your shopping list.

They squish wee little Magicos and Revels. 150 kg each.

hqdefault.jpg
 
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muad

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D&D 8C + a up to a half dozen subwoofers. Total cost ~15-40K depending on how crazy high end of subwoofers I wanted to get. I like this option because it allows me to go crazy with the budget on subwoofers, or perhaps invest in a nice digital front end as well. Or just pocket the money! Aesthetically I think this is by far the worst looking speaker of all the brands I’m going to mention going forward.

Waaaat! No way, I think they're prettier than the kiis by far lol. They have that clean scandanavian thing going on. Such a subjective thing :)
 

Frank Dernie

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I know SCM150ASL's don't measure as flawlessly as KH Neumann or Genelic, so by any metric they are clearly behind in technology.

What do you mean by the statement the midrange driver can be brutal? If you're talking about the fact that its neutral and has massively low distortion, I mean, thats kind of why I love my JBL 4367 and is a positive in my book. I think the Genelic and KH neumann big boys are also "brutal" with regular recordings by this logic.

I am not good at reading graphs, but this curve link doesn't look too horrible to me and looks to meet their stated spec of +-2dB 60Hz-17kHz. Again, Not state of the art, but at least I can get it in any finish I want. And it certainly measures quite a bit better then any Wilson or Avantgarde speaker. Both brands which I am quite fond of and I think can sound wonderful.
I have auditioned ATC speakers often and found them pretty good, myself.
It is true they have not advanced a lot over the last 30 years (except in price, they used to be astonishingly good value, now they are expensive) but back then they were way ahead of most so it was others catching up with them.
Now, it is true, their mid unit is no longer the best available (but not by much) and they haven't followed the even wide distribution strategy espoused by Harman research, so behind current fashion. Nevertheless my nearly 40 year old ProAc EBS, which are effectively the same drivers and cabinet volume as the original SCM50 but in a BBC style thin wall heavily damped cabinet with a resistive reflex port, still sound massively more real than any small monitor I have tried in my study.
Personally I prefer the proportions of their stand mount versions over the towers, and the internal acoustics that go with them.
I too am intrigued by the Geithans and their big ones have 16" bass units and are available in any finish. They are a tiny company and everything is made to order, so probably very inexpensive for what you get but near impossible to audition because there won't be a big stock at dealers.
Of the "high end" brands my local dealer has Wilson and Magico on demo alongside KEF Blades, as well as Sonus Faber, which look beautiful and some, but by no means all, are super.
I have been very impressed by the Magicos I have heard (their drivers are pistonic in their passband).
I have only briefly heard them at a show but the YG speakers also measure well.
Neither YG nor Magico are relying on drivers which have damped breakup (hence to at least some extent, coloured sound) in their passband.
Nor does the Dutch and Dutch 8C which I have not auditioned but look the best of the lot on science and engineering, as I read it, and by a reasonably long way.

So for me, the D&D look the best engineering value for money, with the Geithans an intriguing proposition in terms of value, since I suspect there are fewer and smaller markups in the chain between maker and client.
 

q3cpma

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Didn’t really want to make my own thread for this question but since a lot of you guys are active here, and have experience with higher end speakers I did want to propose the question: in this price bracket of 30-50K USD, what else should one seriously, actually consider? I will be in the market for an entirely new system in a few years and I’m just planning ahead. So far I had come up with the following ideas. And before I get into it, please note, I place a lot of importance on being able to audition and see and hear the speakers in person, as well as being able to customize the speakers cabinet and visual looks of the enclosure to my liking. So here we go...

D&D 8C + a up to a half dozen subwoofers. Total cost ~15-40K depending on how crazy high end of subwoofers I wanted to get. I like this option because it allows me to go crazy with the budget on subwoofers, or perhaps invest in a nice digital front end as well. Or just pocket the money! Aesthetically I think this is by far the worst looking speaker of all the brands I’m going to mention going forward.


Kii 3 + BXT Modules. $37K. Subwoofers probably not needed and/or would be difficult or perhaps redundant(?) to implement with the BXT modules. If someone could confirm please. I like this option because I think it’s aesthetically very pleasing and I can order them in my favourite color + automotive finish: Lantana Purple.


ATC SCM150ASLT. $33K. The domestic (non pro) active version of the ATC SCM150; floor standing. I admit I’ve bought into the “cult” of British engineering at least so far as ATC is concerned (thanks @Ilkless ) Personally I think they are extraordinary speakers what with the option to choose them in ANY finish. In my case, if I get them, I’d get them in a walnut burl; high gloss polish finish. I think they would look simply stunning! And certainly sound great. One clear advantage the ATC has over any of the previously mentioned speakers is the fact it relies on its “tripack” amps, which, from what I’ve been told, are exceedingly simple to operate on for servicing in the event of equipment failure. As well, there are many reports of ATC active being in the field for decades before needing servicing. So the reliability is already established. Contrast that with the class d modules used in the Kii and D&D. And who knows the availability of the specific icepower amps used in them. It could be a natural progression for me to go for the ATC considering what speakers I currently own and what I would he replacing them with. I love big, bulky looking boxes. I love exotic and exquisite wood grain finishes. And I like big drivers and big dynamics. This is something I value highly and why I’m leaning slightly towards ATC over the previous options.

Lastly, and certainly not least, there is what I consider what is possibly the most exciting of all of the speakers I’ve talked about, and it’s the line of speakers from Geithain. What is exciting about them to me is they combine the European innovations that the D&D and Kii speakers offer, but in the large, boxy looking cabinets that I love about ATC. That, and they also use 15” drivers! More dynamics is always better. The problem with Geithain is they have absolutely zero presence in North America. In fact, I have emailed them and they told me I would need to speak to them directly if I wanted to order anything as they have no worldwide distributors. All of the other above mentioned speakers I would be able to audition first. Perhaps it doesn’t matter because like the D&D and like the Kii, the goal of these speakers is to use their suite of tools (DSP and cardioid designs) to improve the listening experience. I haven’t been able to dive into the Geithain speakers much yet but it does appear they are taking a more mechanical approach and don’t use DSP.

And of course, there’s always the passives options to consider... despite all the attention we on ASR, and I, give to actives, there is an allure to people like me to gravitate to the “high end” of passives. Wilson, Vivid, Magico, Yg, etc. These companies all make speakers in the $30-50K bracket. And I have been considering speakers from these brands. For the purposes of this post and potential discussion, I’d like to focus discussion on the active speakers I’ve mentioned so far. And obviously I’m willing to consider other active options like Genelic and KH Neumann and I’d be mad to not audition them alongside everything else. But they are at the bottom of my list because aesthetically I can’t stomach them.
Guess you already have a good idea of what's best, but I would also consider the coming GGNTKT M2 and the Beolab 90. But myself, I'd take the W371A+8351B combo in white.
The bigger Dynaudio Focus XD line might be okay too, but no LF directivity control nor coaxial drivers.
 

thewas

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Then why are Genelecs made out of aluminum?
They use aluminium enclosures only on their relatively compact nearfield and mid monitors (4xxx, 8xxx) but not on their mains (which are from MDF) and also they have FEM optimised ribs inside. A larger metal structure would be very heavy and while having high stiffness has very low damping so can ring at higher frequencies that are very audible.
 
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q3cpma

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They use aluminium enclosures only on their relatively compact nearfield and mid monitors (4xxx, 8xxx) but not on their mains (which are from MDF) and also they have FEM optimised ribs inside. A larger metal structure would be very heavy and while having high stiffness has very low damping so can ring at higher frequencies that are very audible.
I made this post about the question https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...a-review-what-to-buy.18083/page-4#post-589791, but I wonder if my layman intuition was correct or not. Any opinion?
 

Frank Dernie

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They use aluminium enclosures only on their relatively compact nearfield and mid monitors (4xxx, 8xxx) but not on their mains (which are from MDF) and also they have FEM optimised ribs inside. A larger metal structure would be very heavy and while having high stiffness has very low damping so can ring at higher frequencies that are very audible.
Agree on weight for large ones but the small ones would ring like a bell too if not appropriately damped. The size affects the pitch it rings at, not the damping.
My speakers are over 20 years old and made of ally plate.
They are fairly well damped because the air seal is by "O" ring and they are bolted together by a lot of bolts (bolted junctions have high damping if correctly tightened). The mid enclosure is 10mm thick plate, the bass 18mm. There are internal stiffening ribs and and tie bars too. They weigh about 125kg.
If I tap they are not completely "dead" but the sound is very short.
Playing loud music the level of cabinet vibration is so low one can not feel it at all anywhere. They are the only speaker I have tried like this - and yes, whenever I listen to a speaker I make a point of touching everywhere on the cabinet to get an idea of how much "cabinet talk" it must be radiating. I have been doing that for 40 years+, & get a few odd looks.
 

thewas

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I made this post about the question https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...a-review-what-to-buy.18083/page-4#post-589791, but I wonder if my layman intuition was correct or not. Any opinion?
It is correct, higher frequencies lead to smaller amplitudes but on the other side high frequencies need much lower amplitudes to be audible, compare for the example the amplitudes of a woofer and a tweeter.
Agree on weight for large ones but the small ones would ring like a bell too if not appropriately damped. The size affects the pitch it rings at, not the damping.
Of course, it is easier to reinforce and damp a small "egg" though.
 

Pharos

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I have some experience of ATCs having bought a pair of S50s in the early 90s, followed by the MK1 50As, then the Mk2 50As, and the 100As after moving to a larger home.

The 100s did fill a larger room better, but lacked the 'air' I remembered from the ESS Heil, and yearned for, so I decided to rebuild them and improve them. I braced the cabinet corners with scotia hardwood, damped the panels with carpet underlay, rewired them with a larger cable, and put in gaskets between the drivers and front panel of 1mm EPDM rubber. I also decoupled the front panel from the main cabinet body with 3mm PVC sheet, and changed the bass units to SL versions. Afterwards B.W asked me to submit a write up to him of what I had done, which I did, including samples of the materials I had used. He didn't criticise my work, and the reduction in cabinet noise was acknowledged by another member of their staff as a very valid thing to do.

However, after spending two months and £1k on that, I still was not happy after a while with the lack of 'air' and I sold them to a close friend who kept them for many years, and then sold them on to an ex ATC dealer who stated that what I had done was just right.

My friend's opinion and mine is that they are very informative as monitors, but not very pleasant to listen to, they imaging not very well, and they are bullet proof, (I measured 113dB at 30 feet in my lounge). The more recent version of the amps is better, but whilst they were state of the art in about '95, and I admire their engineering, but I do feel that they have been left behind.
 
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