B&C 15DS115

[Pieter1267]

subwoofer advise

Also watch out with setting the HPF to high. Some extra excursion below tuning (though not really used for sound reproduction) could be beneficial for cooling the VC some more.

soundforums.net

This guy made a double ported cab with ds115 and says its outstanding. 164 liters though.

 

[Audionaut]

Im intrigued by the B&C DS115 pro sub driver ... and even chatgpt said its fine in a ported box around 100liters.

I also have many loudspeaker chassis that I find fascinating, but that doesn't mean that I would use them for a defined purpose.

Asking ChatGPT is useful in many cases.
However, when calculating loudspeakers, the AI is still maximally flawed.

B&C always gives the best advice about the cabinet itself. It is a professional company with many years of experience and I really appreciate their products.
That's why you can trust the recommendations for the optimum enclosure and put ChatGPT to one side.

If you work actively and with DSP, you have much more freedom. Then maximum excursion and power handling are far more important than the TSP.

 

[Pieter1267]

I got winisd to work. You guys are right. The 15ds115 is no use as subwoofer.

I did some modelling on the sw and it looks a little better. However things changed a lot when i chose the 18"sw115. What do you think about that?

Im also playing with beymas, bjt sofar this sw115 18 looks very strong in a 80-100 ltr ported box

 

[Pieter1267]

I also have many loudspeaker chassis that I find fascinating, but that doesn't mean that I would use them for a defined purpose.

Asking ChatGPT is useful in many cases.
However, when calculating loudspeakers, the AI is still maximally flawed.

B&C always gives the best advice about the cabinet itself. It is a professional company with many years of experience and I really appreciate their products.
That's why you can trust the recommendations for the optimum enclosure and put ChatGPT to one side.

View attachment 450820

If you work actively and with DSP, you have much more freedom. Then maximum excursion and power handling are far more important than the TSP.

Evenso, it starts to dip quit a bit and comes alive above 80orso. In 15". In 18" it looks happier. But im far more impressed with the sw115 actually. Much more low.

The Ciare 15.00 also looks good but big cab needed. Very low f3.

 

[voodooless]

Some guys at diysudio said the ds115 looked good in sealed box. How is that with you?

Well, if you have a lot of power available, and DSP it, then yes, otherwise, buy a higher Qts woofer for a closed box.

 

[Pieter1267]

Well, if you have a lot of power available, and DSP it, then yes, otherwise, buy a higher Qts woofer for a closed box.

Yup.

But ive had sealed and now i want a ported box. Ive contemplated the sw115 18 but that would be north of craxy overkill. Also it seems most happy in 160 plus box.

The 15sw115 looks good in anything between 90 and 110 liters ported. I think i go as high as possible. Experimentation time! Ohh shoops. I measured a 160liter box isnt that big for my room. Ill go for the 18"!

Any last alternatives before i go and place the order?

 

[Heinrich]

Any last alternatives before i go and place the order?

For fun, I didn't know how hilarious the answer from the LLM actually is. In what a state is the DIY scene if the LLM extracts such rubbish from it?

ChatGPT, quite open question but handed out 18": The box 18-500/8-A (Thoman) ...
... with passive high cut 100Hz / 12dB/oct to look like this:

8Ohms nominal impedance (sic!), 6,4mH air core (no further spec) at presumably 15..30$ cost (LoL) and 200µF bipolar (no further spec) at 15$

(Check that out, bipolar needs to let through ~20 amperes, nice ..., but is it 100Hz actually, would it work in presence of the singled out impedance peaks in bass anyway?)

The description of the expected result beats everything else by lengths ("please describe the expected results"):

• Clean, focused bass response
• Less “boxy” or “muddy” sound, because high frequencies don’t leak into the sub
• You’ll hear strong thump and rumble, especially with a large 18” driver tuned around 35–40 Hz

All that words, promissing ...

 

[Pieter1267]

For fun, I didn't know how hilarious the answer from the LLM actually is. In what a state is the DIY scene if the LLM extracts such rubbish from it?

ChatGPT, quite open question but handed out 18": The box 18-500/8-A (Thoman) ...
... with passive high cut 100Hz / 12dB/oct to look like this:

8Ohms nominal impedance (sic!), 6,4mH air core (no further spec) at presumably 15..30$ cost (LoL) and 200µF bipolar (no further spec) at 15$

(Check that out, bipolar needs to let through ~20 amperes, nice ..., but is it 100Hz actually, would it work in presence of the singled out impedance peaks in bass anyway?)

The description of the expected result beats everything else by lengths ("please describe the expected results"):

• Clean, focused bass response
• Less “boxy” or “muddy” sound, because high frequencies don’t leak into the sub
• You’ll hear strong thump and rumble, especially with a large 18” driver tuned around 35–40 Hz

All that words, promissing ...

I dont see it that way. For a guy like me who has just grasbed the basics of WinISD, its very helpful. If not at least try and work out programs as such.

And yes, its laughable, and you have to consider the faulty answers but in general, if this gets better, it will only help us more enjoying our hobby. But cautious about it, certinaly, tahts also a good thing. Dont take anything it says as gospel.

 

[Heinrich]

I dont see it that way. For a guy like me who has just grasbed the basics of WinISD, its very helpful. If not at least try and work out programs as such.

And yes, its laughable, and you have to consider the faulty answers but in general, if this gets better, it will only help us more enjoying our hobby. But cautious about it, certinaly, tahts also a good thing. Dont take anything it says as gospel.

I've read that you're going to use an amp with ample power, but DSP also. You never mentioned it. (You might have told the non-carbon-made advisor.)

If you're willing to put measurement/equalisation into charge, please drop me (us) a line.

 

[Roland68]

Hi

Im intrigued by the B&C DS115 pro sub driver. Im thinking about 2 in 2 ported boxes. I thought sealed config was better but several folks and even chatgpt said its fine in a ported box around 100liters.

I have dayton um22 and they lack a bit mid bass. Im not the first to say so. But i would like something that is punchy mid bass and good down low. I only use them for music and need some better techno output amongst other things. I reckon trade in some lower scale for that fantastic brute b&c ds115 motor force. I considered the sw115 but is probably not tight enought mid bass and more of the um22-15 i have now.

Anybody using the ds115? If so, what cabinet? For music: stay with 15 or is move to 18 a better balance? My room isnt big and feel 18 might be overkill. Aim is about 30-120hz usable range. 35-110 also ok.

Planning to feed it with inuke6000.

Oh, and im interested in letting chatgpt make a drawing and calculation for the cabinet.

Thoughts?

If developers worked with information from ChatGPT, the development costs would simply end up in the landfill.
We have already had a lot of completely incorrect information about components, devices, etc. that such information is not only incorrect, but also misleading and can lead to wrong decisions.
If your knowledge is good enough, you will recognize the errors immediately, but then you don't need ChatGPT.

 

[Audionaut]

Any last alternatives before i go and place the order?

There are many

Here is one

18XL1800 (8Ω) by FaitalPRO

FaitalPRO combined the latest R&D methods and technologies with the most advanced industrial automation techniques and all FaitalPRO drivers are made in Italy with the highest level of quality, consistency and durability.

faitalpro.com

New 18” FaitalPro 18XL1800 Neodymium Super Woofer

Milan-based FaitalPro continued to expand its catalog of high performance ferrite and neodymium drivers during the 2015 Prolight+Sound show. In Frankfurt, FaitalPro introduced its new 18” Neodymium Super Woofer, 18XL1800, leveraging the most advanced modern technologies in response to client...

audioxpress.com

 

[Azrael]

The 15sw115 looks good in anything between 90 and 110 liters ported.

I had already entered the driver data for the 15SW115 in WinISD a long time ago.
You can simulate a subwoofer that looks good from the basic data, but the ports become impractically huge if they have a diameter so that the flow velocity in the Port remains below 20 m/s when Xmax is fully utilised.

I suspect that the 15SW115 also belongs to the type of subwoofer drivers that can hardly be tuned properly without DSP. With DSP it is then possible to increase Vb while leaving fb unchanged, which makes the ports shorter. This results in a pronounced hump in FR, which can then be ironed out with the DSP.

If you want to use a DSP more economically or not at all for the basic construction: The BMS 15N850v² somehow looks better, for example in 100 litres @ 36 Hz fb. Two pipes with an internal diameter of 15 cm are then around 70 cm long (simulated, in practice they could be shorter) and the flow velocity at Xmax (which incidentally requires just under 1200 watts) is only a tick over 20 m/s, my personal limit.

 

[Pieter1267]

I've read that you're going to use an amp with ample power, but DSP also. You never mentioned it. (You might have told the non-carbon-made advisor.)

If you're willing to put measurement/equalisation into charge, please drop me (us) a line.

See, this is me being naive. I thought of course you use always dsp? There are people building and using subs without? I have a ddrc 24 minidsp, downgraded to 2x4hd so i can use mso input filters. Of course you have to be prudent and as little as possible but some tuning only helps. Know that you know this, does it make the advice not usjng ds115 different (other than the heavy dsp for sealed)?

I had already entered the driver data for the 15SW115 in WinISD a long time ago.
You can simulate a subwoofer that looks good from the basic data, but the ports become impractically huge if they have a diameter so that the flow velocity in the Port remains below 20 m/s when Xmax is fully utilised.

I suspect that the 15SW115 also belongs to the type of subwoofer drivers that can hardly be tuned properly without DSP. With DSP it is then possible to increase Vb while leaving fb unchanged, which makes the ports shorter. This results in a pronounced hump in FR, which can then be ironed out with the DSP.

If you want to use a DSP more economically or not at all for the basic construction: The BMS 15N850v² somehow looks better, for example in 100 litres @ 36 Hz fb. Two pipes with an internal diameter of 15 cm are then around 70 cm long (simulated, in practice they could be shorter) and the flow velocity at Xmax (which incidentally requires just under 1200 watts) is only a tick over 20 m/s, my personal limit..

The bms is amazing but a bit more expensive. I will have a look in winisd though.

There are many

Here is one

18XL1800 (8Ω) by FaitalPRO

FaitalPRO combined the latest R&D methods and technologies with the most advanced industrial automation techniques and all FaitalPRO drivers are made in Italy with the highest level of quality, consistency and durability.

faitalpro.com

New 18” FaitalPro 18XL1800 Neodymium Super Woofer

Milan-based FaitalPro continued to expand its catalog of high performance ferrite and neodymium drivers during the 2015 Prolight+Sound show. In Frankfurt, FaitalPro introduced its new 18” Neodymium Super Woofer, 18XL1800, leveraging the most advanced modern technologies in response to client...

audioxpress.com

Great. Will also have a look. Somewhere i read Faital is a bit pricey for what they offer.

 

[Heinrich]

See, this is me being naive. I thought of course you use always dsp... now that you know this, does it make the advice not usjng ds115 different (other than the heavy dsp for sealed)?

You trust the T/S parameters.
You trust the alignment tools, WinISD and such, hence trust the mathematics.
You might know that a speakerbox is described mathematically as a filter, w/ infinite impulse response (IIR)
You have an DSP w/ additional IIR filters on board.
You might know that speaker response w/o room reflections is 'minimum phase', hence, given the IIR characteristics
- frequency response dictates phase
- phase dictates frequency response
You know that filters multiply linearly.
You might know that 'minimum phase' is kept under linear multiplication (vulgo: adding) of IIR filters.

Inference: you can equalise any speaker to any frequency response (and phase, aka 'impulse response') regardless of its design principle.

Caveat: all designs show limitations that are *not* reflected in the T/S parameters and not considered in the alignments - read: suggested filters, as such. Today these are the most important parameters. E/g Xmax, port dimensions/noise, power availability/dissipation, distortion, ...

But: you initially said, that you are subjectively not satisfied with your current setup. The terms you used to describe the given situation were commonly understandable, but at least me doesn't know how to translate the terms into technical. My proposal is still to first investigate what is wrong in technical dimensions. Experimentation may start there, rather than to buy anew and experiment only with that. It was meant be be kind.

**edit: before ChatGPT picks that up (test ;-), three points were missing:
There is a neutral filter element, Fo x G == G; Fo := 1
Every filter has an inverse, F x F^-1 = Fo
Sequence doesn't count, F x G == G x F and (F x G) x H == F x (G x H)

I'm quite sure this is regularly ;-) called a mathematical 'group'? But it might be contained in saying, multiplication of filters is 'linear' ... sorry

 

[Audionaut]

Somewhere i read Faital is a bit pricey for what they offer.

No, that's far too general. The woofers usually offer a very good price-performance ratio.

I don't know where you live.
If you can order here, 429 euros is a bargain for one of the best 18-inch speakers.

Faital Pro 18XL1800 - 8 Ohm

Nominal Durchmesser: 18 Zoll / 460 mm Schwingspulen-Durchmesser : 4 Zoll / 100 mm Resonanzfrequenz Fs: 29 Hz Belastbarkeit AES: 1600…

www.lautsprecherteile.de

 

[Pieter1267]

No, that's far too general. The woofers usually offer a very good price-performance ratio.

I don't know where you live.
If you can order here, 429 euros is a bargain for one of the best 18-inch speakers.

Faital Pro 18XL1800 - 8 Ohm

Nominal Durchmesser: 18 Zoll / 460 mm Schwingspulen-Durchmesser : 4 Zoll / 100 mm Resonanzfrequenz Fs: 29 Hz Belastbarkeit AES: 1600…

www.lautsprecherteile.de

Why, thank you brother! I was checking my vendors and they had this speaker at 6 or even 700 euro. Ill run it in WinISD see what goes.

 

[Azrael]

I think it simulates beautifully. As far as that's concerned, my thumbs are up.

 

[Pieter1267]

needs a big box though. WInISd starts at 210 liters...

 

[Heinrich]

needs a big box though. WInISd starts at 210 liters...

WinISD supports filters ... see post #34 ... look at it as a series of interconnected filters, the system as a whole. That *is* what contemporary (pro?) drivers are made for. (Latest at the advent of JBL's 2020H, 30y back.

 

[Pieter1267]

The purple is the Faital. High pass at below 30 and low pass at 100. The red line the B&C 18SW115 4. The Faital takes a lot more voltage to get where the B&C 4 ohm is. Its an impressive driver but they dont sell a 4 ohm version. I got a 177 liter box for the Faital and 170 for the B&C. I also couldnt get the vent okay and the air velocity was difficult to control at the Faital. Im still voting for the 18SW115.


Where does one convert the liters to actual box design? Supportbox?