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Børresen speakers

I would most likely find the speaker to be very poor almost immediately. I'm a mix engineer/musician/speaker designer. I spend a lot of time mixing music and analyzing speakers for filter development. I work on neutral speakers and my design goals tend to favor the same neutrality. Typically any deviation from that is very obvious to me. This speaker in question exhibits major deviations, an enter lower mid octave is just resonance, the woofer to tweeters response and DI shows a flawed xover, and the speaker has a lot of decay issues. Yeah you better believe I would hate this speaker and know it had major problems the second it made noise.
I get that, but do you think you'd be running for the door?

Say you went to a pals house for a few beers and he had these speakers and was playing music - do you think you would be unable to stand it? Sure you'd spot the problems but they wouldn't sound bad like you'd make him switch them off because you couldn't stand the racket bad.
 
Say you went to a pals house for a few beers and he had these speakers and was playing music - do you think you would be unable to stand it? Sure you'd spot the problems but they wouldn't sound bad like you'd make him switch them off because you couldn't stand the racket bad.

I'm not sure what you're even trying to get at, seems like some sort of quest to convince people that the speakers are not that bad. Your hypothetical scenarios are boring and not worth entertaining really.

FWIW, most of my friends are musicians, audio enthusiasts, and even a few are speaker designers. None of them have bad speakers thanks to the increase consumer awareness that sites like ASR have brought to the masses. My speaker design friends will absolutely hold nothing back with their opinions on speakers and anyone that knows me personally knows that I will be very honest in my assessments.
 
I get that, but do you think you'd be running for the door?

Say you went to a pals house for a few beers and he had these speakers and was playing music - do you think you would be unable to stand it? Sure you'd spot the problems but they wouldn't sound bad like you'd make him switch them off because you couldn't stand the racket bad.
I've heard Raidhos and Borresens before, and I was unable to stand it. They sound intolerable, as expected for speakers with such embarrassingly horrendous measurements.
 
Yeah a bit like your manners.
Ktacos may be a bit... blunt, but he's got a point. What are you even trying to prove with your hypothetical "would you run out of the room" scenario? That a speaker has to produce excruciatingly annoying noise from presumably pleasant source material before we can consider it to be awful? Just mangling the source with obscene frequency response errors isn't bad enough to warrant criticism?
 
In this case I will turn to Artificial Intelligence due to the fact that my adversary @Snickers-is lacking.
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This comes pretty close to a sonic disaster IMO.
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That is unbelievable! I mean, how is it possible? Does this guy not own a microphone? You can see all the XO points, and there are huge level discrepancies between drivers. So it seems as if the major flaw is in the XO. Because once it is normalized:

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It's not so terrible. It's still bad, but not comically terrible.

During my googling I found that even subjectivist forums struggle to praise this speaker ... Audiogon and Steve Hoffman.
 
Elevating the tweeter, to boast about so-called "extra detail" is sadly far too common... Zingali does it too

Elevating the tweeter on axis does not necessarily mean the designer tried to boost treble in order to create the fake impression of resolution or extra detail. It might also be a result of having a tweeter with overly narrow directivity, so trying to bring the averaged in-room response or the response under typical listening angles of 30deg to linearity, results in overshoot of treble on axis.

This is typically found with bigger planar tweeters, cone tweeters, some fullrange concepts or horns of narrow shape. If it results in subjectively boosted treble, is a matter of how listener and speakers are positioned and what's the actual room response. I have heard both Borresen and Zingali briefly and did not notice overshoot of treble.

how is it possible? Does this guy not own a microphone?

Some designers don't use one indeed, or claim that they trust their ears more than the microphone. If one does not aim for linearity from technical point but for a certain ´pleasing sound´, I see no reason to condemn it. People are free to like it or not (I don't like it, but also don't find it annoying to a degree worth writing about it).

You can see all the XO points, and there are huge level discrepancies between drivers.

Interestingly, crossovers with rather mild slopes and broad transition bands tend to create pretty funny artifacts on the frequency response and polar plot (due to interference and comb filtering), but as the peaks are usually very narrow and limited to certain angles, it is not necessarily sounding as horrible as it looks, for the reason that in a real room at a certain distance reflections are bearing all sorts of countering dips and peaks and for our brain things are kind of averaging out.

Some B&W and Dynaudio models are prominent examples for that. They just have their tweeters and midranges relatively close together, so the aforementioned phenomenon creates limited peaks on the graph. With planar tweeters and midrange arrays, this might look different.

I've heard Raidhos and Borresens before, and I was unable to stand it. They sound intolerable, as expected for speakers with such embarrassingly horrendous measurements.

I would not agree to that, and I would like to know what exactly was intolerable?

As mentioned, they are not neutral, and seem to have some kind of deliberately imbalanced sound in order to create a certain impression. The measurements don't look good indeed, but after having heard them and getting an impression of how impactful narrow dips and peaks were in reality, I would say that only the recessed brilliance band 2-3.5K and the overly fat, yet not bloated, upper bass, were instantly recognizable from the charts.

Nothing of that would in my understanding qualify as ´intolerable´. The tonal balance is surely off and I would not like to do critical listening of classical music on them, but there was also no typical flaw present which I personally would perceive as ´intolerable´, such as harshness resulting from distortion, horn colorations, annoying resonances, tonally imbalanced reverb or lacking bass. All of which can be found in speakers with good to flawless on-axis response, so I would not overstate the importance of this one.
 
Ktacos may be a bit... blunt, but he's got a point. What are you even trying to prove with your hypothetical "would you run out of the room" scenario? That a speaker has to produce excruciatingly annoying noise from presumably pleasant source material before we can consider it to be awful? Just mangling the source with obscene frequency response errors isn't bad enough to warrant criticism?
Perhaps English isn't his first language, or yours, since you both seem to struggle with understanding the fairly simple point I made.

Or possibly lacking experience in interpreting FR measurements and relating them to actual sound perceived.

Yes the speakers warrant criticism and I would not buy them in a million years but they're not that bad.

The speaker is poor, especially at the price, but not 'awful'. 'Obscene frequency response errors' is way over the top. See Arindal's excellent post above.
 
levating the tweeter on axis does not necessarily mean the designer tried to boost treble in order to create the fake impression of resolution or extra detail. It might also be a result of having a tweeter with overly narrow directivity, so trying to bring the averaged in-room response or the response under typical listening angles of 30deg to linearity, results in overshoot of treble on axis.

This is typically found with bigger planar tweeters, cone tweeters, some fullrange concepts or horns of narrow shape. If it results in subjectively boosted treble, is a matter of how listener and speakers are positioned and what's the actual room response. I have heard both Borresen and Zingali briefly and did not notice overshoot of treble.
I fully understand that we hear the combined sound of radiation in all directions from a speaker, and that a given designer has to work with what he got.
But, we do hear the direct sound first, and I have a hard time understanding the reasoning for defending a poor speaker, when there's tons of much better speakers, also for less money - everywhere.
You can buy what you want, and you might prefer something else - ignoring any technical and scientific finding from the last 50 years of intensive research in the field - though I can't fathom why.
I have a Danish HIFI magazine from the early 80's, where they reference Floyd E Toole, regarding getting the dispersion right, by making a filter that fits with the speaker design - it's nothing new.
Zingali is rather easy. Hammer together any square box of scrap wood, apply 2 channel plate amp, 15" woofer and a ready-made horn with driver.... bingo, you have a high output pretty linear active speaker.
Finish, looks, emotions, and branding.... phew... that's the tough one :D

With Børresen, I think they just wanted to brand themselves by doing something else. If you've ever been to an exhibition - which you clearly state that you have - then there's a bunch of tall slim tower speakers - and not many people care to dive into the difference between subjective and objective view points.
 
Some designers don't use one indeed, or claim that they trust their ears more than the microphone. If one does not aim for linearity from technical point but for a certain ´pleasing sound´, I see no reason to condemn it.
These are all about status (price tag) and sighted impression, and not aiming so much for "pleasing sound" but for your wallet.
I seriously doubt that in a blind test anybody will like these unless compared with some other botched design. I did not hear them and go from the measurements and from priorities like putting handcrafted cryotreated massive silver demodulation rings in an ironless motor design. Sound seems to me a pure collateral.
The tonal balance is surely off and I would not like to do critical listening of classical music on them, but there was also no typical flaw present which I personally would perceive as ´intolerable´, such as harshness resulting from distortion, horn colorations, annoying resonances, tonally imbalanced reverb or lacking bass. All of which can be found in speakers with good to flawless on-axis response, so I would not overstate the importance of this one.
The funny thing is that if you look up the measurements from erinsaudiocorner the crazy FR is not so much a result of the crossover but from resonances (ports, mid woofer and maybe more). The distortion is mediocre. The directivity is "creative" (talking about midrange centric reverb?).
Your statements sounds to me like you chose not to be (overly) critical with the speaker for whatever reasons. Sighted impression in a nice room with the aura of exclusivity can go a long way.
Are these intolerabel or "awful"? Well, it depends on one's definition of those words/feelings, of course. I would not say "intolerable", but I do not run from my laptop sound either, it is just not good (and indeed awe-fully so). And for the price it is not even ridiculous, it's nonsense.
 
Borrensen are just one of many ‘back story’ manufacturers, no actual technical merit or engineering excellence, sold to customers with no technical knowledge who believe the myth/back story.
I sincerely hope that as knowledge of sound loudspeaker design propagates those manufacturers will disappear.
Keith
 
Unfortunately, it looks like the era of enlightenment was back in the 60's and 70's.

Nowadays people go around believing Klipsch Heritage adds dynamics, and that tube amps contribute to this, while class D is somehow revealed to be "non musical" by such speakers.

People believe in power conditioners and super cables. Any review that reveals that a product does not add any real benefits, and that even shows that the manufacturer is pure hoax, is simply ignored.

Retailers claim to just "offer what customers want", and when reviewing where the listening skills can be found, both manufacturers and especially retailers score below average.

High end consumer audio is unlikely to recover.
 
Off topic: Am I the only one disliking this new forum feature where links to other threads creates this huge inline copy of the post complete with pictures and all? Very hard to read.
I also agree and I had to make now a hyperlinked text to remove it.

Is called unfurling and was already reported but am not sure what @amirm planned to do. See here:

 
Is called unfurling and was already reported but am not sure what @amirm planned to do. See here:


But I feel like it unfurled a lot less in earlier versions? Now it's like a full page, before I felt like it was more like a paragraph?
 
But, we do hear the direct sound first, and I have a hard time understanding the reasoning for defending a poor speaker, when there's tons of much better speakers, also for less money - everywhere.

I am not defending this speaker at all. Everyone who has listened to it and claiming that it sounds unnatural or flawed, has my full support, I did not like it either (if it was the very same model, might have been one size bigger or more expensive). I just want to point out that whatever flaw it has, cannot be precisely predicted by the measurements and that I see no reason to condemn it as ´intolerable´ or worst-sounding speaker ever. It appeared to me just as a sounded speaker to serve a certain audiophile audience, that's all.

ignoring any technical and scientific finding from the last 50 years of intensive research in the field - though I can't fathom why.

Neither can I, but let people choose the loudspeaker they subjectively like the most.

Speaking of ´scientific findings´, if you are referring solely to some kind of controlled polling asking groups of listeners about their subjective preference with unknown recordings in an unknown listening room, I fail to understand why this should bear more weight than the personal subjective judgement. Why should I buy speakers because some scientists having published their last manufacturer-independent research in 1986 are saying they are correct, and my ear says the opposite? Happened several times to me and does not make sense.

Zingali is rather easy. Hammer together any square box of scrap wood, apply 2 channel plate amp,..

Are you sure you have not mixed up anything? I thought this brand is mainly known for high-sensitivity passive speakers with rather unusual horn shapes.

Your statements sounds to me like you chose not to be (overly) critical with the speaker for whatever reasons. Sighted impression in a nice room with the aura of exclusivity can go a long way.

This was not the case with the occasion on which I heard them (or likely a more expensive/bigger model), and is anyways unlikely to have influence on my judgment.

The reason why I warn to condemn such speakers is that I have met a surprisingly high number of people who like such ´never-annoying´, distant, warm, silky sound, even if is surely is not neutral. And while I personally don't like it, I understand why people do and which aim they see in high end audio. Telling them how much they are victims to bad speaker design or fraudsters, discussing their mental conditions and how much their ears are kinked in comparison with the righteous speaker science, is more likely to loose them to subjectivistic absurdity forever, than to win anyone back for fact-based audio judgment.

These are all about status (price tag) and sighted impression, and not aiming so much for "pleasing sound" but for your wallet.

I don't really see the point of status or technical detail heavily influencing a sighted test, as they seem to be pretty slim, unlikely to impress anyone as a status symbol.

Having heard a legion of speakers under controlled conditions including blind tests, I am pretty sure the characteristics I have noticed with this particular Børresen model, will be distinguishable in any blind test and people who prefer it, will always prefer it under controlled conditions as well.

We don´t have to agree to that sonic ideal (I surely don't), but cooking up the conspiracy theory that it is just about ripping off some uninformed rich consumers, does not stand the test of time. Such loudspeakers would not sell and exist, if they would not win over competitors in personal comparison tests of potential buyers - however flawed their test design might be and however biased they are.

it looks like the era of enlightenment was back in the 60's and 70's.

Nowadays people go around believing Klipsch Heritage adds dynamics, and that tube amps contribute to this, while class D is somehow revealed to be "non musical" by such speakers.

People believe in power conditioners and super cables. Any review that reveals that a product does not add any real benefits, and that even shows that the manufacturer is pure hoax, is simply ignored.

Interestingly, the era of developers and scientists understanding about acoustics, is now and in the last two decades.

The sad thing in my understanding is that there had already been a time when objective and fact-based audio evaluation failed to convince people but rather lost support of the masses, in favor of fully subjectivistic and often questionable high end philosophy. I mean the 1980s and 1990s. The fact that a good portion of hi-fi buyers have a long time ago moved away from this, I prescribe to a certain degree to the way facts had been presented some 30 or 40 years ago and what was the result of ´fact/science-based´ speaker engineering. It just did not meet peoples expectations, and they quickly understood that all the ´1,800 Watts per channel!´ and ´13-35,000Hz!´ claims had nothing to do with how they perceived sound quality.

Let us not repeat the same mistakes by telling people to mistrust their ears and rely solely on ´science´ and measurements. We have the prove that it did not work.
 
We don´t have to agree to that sonic ideal (I surely don't), but cooking up the conspiracy theory that it is just about ripping off some uninformed rich consumers, does not stand the test of time. Such loudspeakers would not sell and exist, if they would not win over competitors in personal comparison tests of potential buyers - however flawed their test design might be and however biased they are.
Many times the uninformed in this hobby, who don't know any better on the science and engineering that separates good from bad speakers go by craftsmanship, built quality, brand luxury to decide how good a speaker is.

Many of which also don't do much auditioning in their own home. So they have to make a decision based on what they know, in this case, the aforementioned inputs.
 
Perhaps English isn't his first language, or yours, since you both seem to struggle with understanding the fairly simple point I made.

Or possibly lacking experience in interpreting FR measurements and relating them to actual sound perceived.

Yes the speakers warrant criticism and I would not buy them in a million years but they're not that bad.

The speaker is poor, especially at the price, but not 'awful'. 'Obscene frequency response errors' is way over the top. See Arindal's excellent post above.

How mature. Questioning ones language skills because they simply disagree with you.

Can you explain how I somehow missed your point, but also said this in post #62.

"I'm not sure what you're even trying to get at, seems like some sort of quest to convince people that the speakers are not that bad."

Was I wrong? Are you suggesting that you can decide for me, what I think a bad speaker is?
Or possibly lacking experience in interpreting FR measurements and relating them to actual sound perceived.

I mean I go this site, read almost every speaker review. I design speakers with a process that usually entails capturing a lot of data and importing into software like Vituixcad. I look at RTA's on mixing consoles at least 2 days a week for work, and utilize manufacturer specific sim software to determine array positioning and coverage. But hey I guess I just don't know how to read a FR measurement ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Good luck on your quest, doesn't seem like it will be a fruitful one but I certainly won't try to get in your way.
 
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